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Post by JjJ on Feb 24, 2006 22:04:17 GMT -5
I guess the great economic crisis in 1929 was one of important reasons of Nazi's advent. After WWII, the U.S. helped to reestablish Europe economically with Marshall plan. I think it had to due with the policies after WW1 that pissed germany off. It made it virtualy impossible for germany to recover its economy and make money. So then the Jewish became the targets. Regarding Holocaust, it has been less told that Hitler also massacred gypsies and german handicapped. The post modern historians point out that historical writings have been influenced by political relationship (- the concept of politic in large sense). Yes many minorities were exterminated. There were about seven thousand nazi gaurds at the biggest concentration camp. Of the 7,000 nazi gaurds,only 900 were actually prosecuted. I agree with Sunami Chun that Koreans should abandon their narrow and resentful mind. At the same time, I'm worrying about the actual Japanese extreme right wing politicians, not for the past but for the future. Why are we learning history ? Not to repeat silly past. You have to understand that japan and Korea have been fighting for a very long time. It is not something that can be dropped so easily. I agree that the Japanese gov./politicians and the royalties are the problem to current afairs. (LDP)Left wing party is much a danger to japan as the other is. The japanese people I met here were mostly gentle, mild and more civilized than Koreans. But their perspectives are more directed to the Western countries than to Asia. Several years ago, I met a young Japanese historian. Even though I told nothing about history, she started to tell that she knew about comfort women during WWII and criticized Koizumi's visit of Yasukuni (spell?). And she also said that she was in minority group in Japan. Perhaps the Japanese need to learn more history, while Koreans need to have more humor sense and diplomatically refined attitude. For sure there are a small percentage of japanese who think differently from the rest of the country. The japanese should learn real history. Not thosebooks just aproved by the Government of japan.
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Post by Tim on Feb 24, 2006 22:16:21 GMT -5
There are all kinds of people in the world. Sadly, being a minority means nothing, in any form of government. Minorities are only a target for the majorities to pick on.
Anyways, I do agree with JjJ that Japan has been fighting with Korea and China for awhile. There are somethings that can are better left off forgetting; then again, there are bigger things that can't be forgotten. As a Chinese, I cannot forget the atrocities that the Japanese have committed. It's not like Japan refused to apologize to Korea and China because she stepped on our foot; it's more than that. I cannot forget the anger and resentment, because if I do that, who will remember the Nanjing Massacre? If I do not sound angry or resentful, other people will think Nanjing Massacre is just a bunch of chinese being killed. We cannot forget everything. In fact, I think this is what Koizumi is trying to do: to make sure we forget our anger towards them. Therefore, if we do that, they will never have to admit their wrongs.
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diplomatic immunity
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Post by diplomatic immunity on Feb 24, 2006 22:17:33 GMT -5
There is also a spiritual element to this. To the Christian world, the Jews are "God's chosen people". Despite the disgrace of anti-Semitism in some quarters, the Christian world at large was horrified at the plight of the Jews and were thrilled with the birth of Israel in 1948. Prior to Hitler, Germany had been viewed as a highly evolved, cultured albeit war-like nation with Christian roots. Nazism was anti-Christian as well and was a cult of the highest kind. When Germany embraced Hitler, the Germans turned their back on their own culture and faith heritage. They terrified the white world. In short, the Germans lost their humanity. Fast forward to today. . . Answering directly about german example... Nazism/fascism was not born in Germany, anti-semitism was not born on modern europe, many countries like spain in late 14-15th century with inquisition We have to remember that anti-semitism in the middle ages were a different form from the 19th-20th century from of semitism. The latter form was more politically rather than religious. So in really, Nazism/Racism did begin in the Imperial Ages instead of the Middle Ages where persecutions were more religious bases. With the Nazi party and Hitler, there were no religious cause ala Christians vs the Jews, it was more politically and racially driven, The Dreyfus Affair is a perfect example of politically it was. Actually, now that I think about it, America and Japan aren't the closest friends. I believe there was an incident where Japan wanted a seat in the UN cabinet and the US didn't support her? I'm not really sure... something like that... if somebody knows better than me, please clarify. I don't think the U.N. event happened, but the U.S. and Japan have always been suspicious of each other, especially economically. Japan is very stubborn with fully opening its market and they have constantly been under attack with western nations for this attitude. America and Europe have fully opened their markets to Japanese product but little favor is returned. The Import/export between the two is very unbalanced, which motivated the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988. However, when the U.S. decided to venture off to Japan neighbors because of their stubbornness, Japan began to worry. Japanese Industrialists began looking with renewed interest of east asian culture, hoping to gain a advantage over western countries. Germany and Japan are indeed at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Germany is falling into a black hole with the decades of public penance it has had to pay because of Hitler. And I agree that the Japanese don't even feel the need to acknowledge that they did ANYTHING wrong. You make a interesting point , Bungalowdweller. One have to wonder what Japan would have done if it didn't grow fast economically. Would it have apologize for its atrocities sooner rather than leave it behind and focus more on the rising economy? Germany was split after the war so there were 2 different political ideas and economy being forced in that country, so the economic rise couldn't have fully grown because the country was torn (same goes for Korea, Haiti, and most east european countries) Even if Korea, Haiti, are the others united with their land neighbors, they wouldn't be able to function because of the new strain on the economy. Anyway, Japan economic growth clearly erased their past actions in the minds of western investors (Look how their attacking China, its like Tienanmen Square never happened) Japan neighbors are the only ones that are screaming at the lack of punishment of Japan crimes. But as soon as China becomes economically stable and become a powerful force, the cries in China will slowly go down because now they will be on the spotlight of their atrocities with Tibet and others and become targets of critics.
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Diplomatic Immunity
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Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 24, 2006 22:26:35 GMT -5
Oops! another mistake . Japan neighbors are not the only ones making noises, they are still angry Britians, Americans, Austrialians, and others that are pissed off also.
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Diplomatic Immunity
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Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 25, 2006 1:02:08 GMT -5
looking back on my post, I made a lot of grammatical errors. I hope you all can fill in what I meant since I can't go back and edit my posts.
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 4:10:58 GMT -5
florel, your comments/statements are truly apreciated by me....in favour or not...
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 4:45:31 GMT -5
JJJ,
the relationship between korea and japan is most known by us, and i'm sorry to say but chinese doesn't know enough and has nothing to do with it, only and only anyone has to do with it if you recall us to reasonability as i should call for yours because your history is also great as great as everyone else if you know how to differ what is real from what is fake...as i said before if japan wants to keep lying it is their problem for the amusement of my revengeful mind.....
This small percentage of you and florel, for me are the 0,001% of people that i care for, this people who are willing to search for thruth beyond cloths are the people who can make real difference, i would never bother to expose my thoughts of japan to a japanese who is not willing to learn as i expect no japanese to teach me anything about korea if he is not sincere....the world naturally takes care of lies and arrogance.....
written drunk at 6 am after a party, but conscious, or at least expected counciousness....if not, guess whatever it fits....
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 5:11:05 GMT -5
Tim, if you fit for being the guardian of wrongdings by others i could only say that it must be a heavy burdain, and unfortunately as the guardian of it you will never be open to learn something else.....
Diplomatic immunity, religion and loving of your gods whatever they are has nothing to do with nazism/facism/inquisition/pogroms, it has only to do with biased history views and cheap prejudice that was smartly managed by hitler and many of his followers. You say that it had more political implications with the nazi's but this view is wrong since historically certified is the fact that nazis used europeans centuries of slowly breed prejudice against jews to do what they did......it was not the imposition of hitler's nightmare that we are all believed to think, but in a great extent europe's wish..........
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 5:26:22 GMT -5
sorry to generalyse....."in a greater extent many europeans wish......" about my will to write drunk at 7 am..... i went out this night and although i was with great friends i was thinking of what u may have written here...eventhough i don't know you people i long for talking to you....thanks for the opportunity and please never take personally as sometimes the orc shaped being of me takes the wheel....
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Post by Tim on Feb 25, 2006 13:56:01 GMT -5
sunami chun, I don't understand what you are saying? The Chinese have nothing to do with the Japanese? Are you saying that the Japanese committed no atrocities against the Chinese? Please clarify what you are saying, because I took what you just said as a huge insult! Are you saying that over 30million Chinese that were killed by the Japanese means nothing?! I believe if the Japanese had killed that many Koreans, Korea would be a very small country right now, perhaps even close to extinction! China and Korea may disagree on many subjects, but this is one subject both countries agree upon! If you are willing alienate this, then so be it! It will turn into a three way battle between Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese!
I am the guardian of wrongdoing? What am I, Satan? Do you even know me to call me the guardian of wrongdoing? Just because I share different views than you, I am the guardian of wrongdoing? Do you think I read only the Chinese's view points on history? I read as many sources as I possibly can, and the fact that you called me ignorant and unable to expand my mind is something I find extremely insulting and ignorant of you!
Are you seriously drunk? Because if you ask me, you really sound like you are! We don't care about what you did last night, going to a party or whatever!
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 14:12:12 GMT -5
of course u didn't understand nothing of what i said and u don't have to feel that insulted. You know china and chinese feelings but u don't know korean, u love your country i love mine, and u may know how to solve these questions by balancing your chinese feelings, china has a hard relationship with japan and it must be solved by both and only both.... as korean i could only say that your country has a beautifull history and background to get the best out of it..... please, never said that u are ignorant or narrow minded, don't assume that....i was only stating that when i thought that way it was not even closely to add me anything of good, i've been in that path too..... despite i was drunk it is you that looks buzzed!!! , but yeah you are right i've talked too much and idealized people a bit, i will learn from it.....
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Post by Tim on Feb 25, 2006 15:26:23 GMT -5
I don't know how Koreans feel, but I think that their feelings should share similarities with the Chinese to some degree towards the Japanese. The reason why I got mad was because you said the Chinese had nothing to do with Korea and Japan. Maybe not Korea, but definately with Japan.
I am not buzzed. I do not drink or smoke or do drugs. I am perfectly sober.
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 25, 2006 16:44:38 GMT -5
It has similarities indeed and i don't want to measure what japanese did worst, if the massacrer of chinese or the colonial period of korean and imjim wars....but the little i know about chinese feelings is that u share the same amount of pride that was hurt with koreans or even more, don't know...other than that i have a idealized vision of chinese that they have a more expansive (wider)thought than koreans because you are a wider nation, and a more soft vision of the world because you suffered less than korea (from now on i have to be carefull with you , when i say softer i meant that it is a good thing...) i said before that i admire the fact that china being such a huge nation with so many differences and contrasts (many different races together) have little divergence and get allong very well and it is wrong to say that its due only because of an authoritarian government, it has very good cultural premisses that allowed it so but im not a specialist on china as you can see.... sure there your issues of tibet, etc, but despite it i've never met or heard of any of you guys saying things like china is the cultural matrix of korea or being arrogant towards us and i expect it doesn't change with the growth of china.... i think there is a mutual respect that go beyond politics and i apreciate that, but we koreans shouldn't say anything about tibet nor the public opinion, this must be solved by the two countries only, or even assume your pain for nanjing massacrer or you ours pain because opposite than helping will create more problems, just imagine two blind by anger, resentment countries demanding japanese to feel sry, would it really in japanese citizens mind help? many wrong nationalists would only use it inflate more stupid nationalism....that's what i think really...public opinion is maneauvered by the free democratic-delusional-politically correct world for the interest of few..... sometimes not alcohol but anger makes us dazed and confused.....
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Post by JjJ on Feb 25, 2006 22:28:49 GMT -5
JJJ, the relationship between korea and japan is most known by us, and i'm sorry to say but chinese doesn't know enough and has nothing to do with it, only and only anyone has to do with it if you recall us to reasonability as i should call for yours because your history is also great as great as everyone else if you know how to differ what is real from what is fake...as i said before if japan wants to keep lying it is their problem for the amusement of my revengeful mind..... I can not believe you wrote that. Just because Korea had bitter war history with japan,does not diminished the tragedy that China had with japan. Saying that only Koreans will only know true suffering from japan's hand,is wrong Ignorant and rude to say. Both countries suffered by japan equally. None deminishes from the other. Btw Japan is not the only country aflicked by national pride. Korea is also overwhelmed by national pride problems. korea-RockVersionofNationalAnthemSparks Outcry
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Post by Tim on Feb 25, 2006 23:38:21 GMT -5
There's no need to keep on flattering China. I know we have issues, such as the Tibetan issue, that we have to deal with. I do think this should be between Chinese and Tibetans only, and that America and everyone else should stay out. However, I think Chinese have a right to voice their opinions during the Japanese atrocities of WWII, because the Koreans were not the only ones who suffered during that time. We (Chinese and Koreans) can use this knowledge that both of our people suffered gravely and fight together against the Japanese trying to brainwash their own people. I do not think arguing who suffered more will help, as that will solve nothing. China and Korea shall voice out and tell the world about the Japanese atrocities! Sooner or later, even America will know that this is not a matter to take lightly.
There is nothing wrong with national pride. It reflects how proud they are to be the race that they are. It is better than losing an ethnic's background. I know this because the Chinese are getting more and more Westernized everyday.
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