diplomatic immunity
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Post by diplomatic immunity on Feb 18, 2006 22:42:03 GMT -5
Oops made a mistake, that should be a "Hmmm...." instead of "Mmmm"
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Post by Tim on Feb 19, 2006 12:30:30 GMT -5
I really have to learn to stop generalizing a race or group... Anyways, I suppose what you said about WWII does make sense, but that doesn't mean we should forget about the atrocities the Japanese did. This is only my poor knowledge and opinion, but I think that if America teaches her students primarily on the Holocaust than other atrocities happening at that time (not that I'm saying the Holocaust wasn't atrocious), it is like they are helping the Japanese covering up their crimes. A lot of Americans and Westerners can't see why the Chinese are so angry over the new Japanese history books. They think all the Japanese did was they came to China and kill some people. It's far more than that. They tortured and persecuted Chinese to death, they didn't even let pregnant women live!! I bet you a lot of Americans and Westerners don't know that fact. You ask any Westerners about the Nanjing massacre, I guarantee you that less than 50% of them would've actually heard of this. You ask them about the Holocaust, everybody knows about that. It is safe to assume the Holocaust wouldn't be forgotten (even the Germans are helping the Jews to track down Hitler's followers), but as for the war atrocities in Asia... that has long been forgotten. OK, so my comment on Truman was a bit harsh, but really, I think you would feel the same if you were in my parents and grandparents' shoes. How would you feel if a person that you thought was your "friend" decided to help restore your worst enemy so that the two of them can gain up, kill you, and steal all your prize possessions after that?
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Post by JJ on Feb 19, 2006 20:41:04 GMT -5
The peace treaty act that US wrote with japan is also purposely flawed. It waves the rights for US citizens affected by the war between japan from ww2. People can not sue or seek compensation from japan's government. By way of, acts of aggression or atrocities commited by japanese soldiers of ww2.
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Diplomatic Immunity
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Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 22, 2006 11:55:45 GMT -5
but I think that if America teaches her students primarily on the Holocaust than other atrocities happening at that time (not that I'm saying the Holocaust wasn't atrocious), it is like they are helping the Japanese covering up their crimes. A lot of Americans and Westerners can't see why the Chinese are so angry over the new Japanese history books. They think all the Japanese did was they came to China and kill some people. It's far more than that. They tortured and persecuted Chinese to death, they didn't even let pregnant women live!! I bet you a lot of Americans and Westerners don't know that fact. You ask any Westerners about the Nanjing massacre, I guarantee you that less than 50% of them would've actually heard of this. Tim, it was the Western journalists that were reporting the truth of what was happening in Nanjing. Many Americans know about the Massacre and its a highlight of Japanese aggression in WW2. There are four highlights that stand in mind about the Japanese aggressions, especially to Americans: - Nanjing Massacre - Pearl Harbor - Iwo Jima - Bataan death march people know more but those are the basics I'm guessing you are making assessments based on how the youth of America or the west are learning history, particularly toward Asia. Am I correct? Because there are tons of Americans that know about Nanjing and other atrocities of Japan. The youth of today are consumed with present Japan rather than past Japan, that is why many young americans don't really understand nor care about the past conflicts between Japan and her neighbors. Ask a average 20 year old U.S. college student about Japan past and I'll promise you he/she will skip late 19th century- to early 20th century and go right into the Samurai age. In order to really understand why the young of today don't see the violent Japan that it once was go back to the 19th century. During the 19th century, many western novelists and journalists, saw Japan as some new foreign land that was untouched. Coming out of the Opium war with China, many western writers constantly degrading China as a desert-like atmosphere with a broken landmark buildings and cities, while the newly open Japan was seen as bright and lovely with beautiful shrines and castles. However, in WW2, China was seen as more better than Japan. The Chinese people were seen as kind and polite while the Japanese were more dogmatic and arrogant. But after the war, mainly early 1950s, Japan was seen as a country where practically every point of reference was aesthetic. Words such as "delicate, exquisite, etc made the west see Japan as some fantasy world that was transcending time and history. America and europeans saw the Japanese citizens as simple people with childlike wants. By presenting Japan in a aesthetic rather than military terms was the political weather at the time. The new enemy was communism and the battleground was Korea and with China backing North Korea, Japan quickly became friend rather than foe. Americans and Europeans still continue this trend today constantly calling Japan a different world, stereotyping Japanese women as submissive and the ideal woman that obey a mans need (which cursed every asian woman), praising Japan on everything in video games, Cars, technology, etc, claiming that Japan is crime free, and more. Just look at how the Geishas are portrayed to the west. Their lives are so secretive and seductive when they're thousand of women that do the same thing all over the world. You always hear that their not prostitutes, that their more dignified than a prostitute, their are the embodiment of Japanese culture in one, but the definition of a prostitute is: "One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose"The word Prostitute have been so connected with sex that the other meaning (which a Geisha does) is left alone. but really, I think you would feel the same if you were in my parents and grandparents' shoes. How would you feel if a person that you thought was your "friend" decided to help restore your worst enemy so that the two of them can gain up, kill you, and steal all your prize possessions after that? Trust me, I've been a victim of the U.S. constant shifting of policies myself as well as my country, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions so quick.
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Post by Tim on Feb 22, 2006 19:33:58 GMT -5
Young people dominate the media and most of the world today... If young people are this ignorant, then who will lead the world in the future? Certainly not the older guys, because they will all die out. It is important to know as much about the past as possible. What about Germany? Germany's been doing pretty well. They even arrest Nazi people as a way to express regret. Yet, we still learn alot about their past. The only reason why I believe Japan is an ally with the west nowadays is because Japan is more democratic than most Asian nations. Anyways, that still doesn't give Westerners any reasons to forget about the past. Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard somewhere that some Japanese war criminals were pardoned by the Americans during the Korean War. Even if they are friends now, are we suppose to forgive them for their past war crimes? I mean, the Japanese didn't even ask for an apology! Yet, the Americans seemed to admire them so much these days. I'm willing to bet if it was China or some other big country that invaded other lands during WWII and killed, raped, enslave people like that, the Americans certainly would portray them as unfriendly people. Go to any young American today, and if you ask them about Japan, they'll either say they don't know anything about that place, or they'll say Japan's a cool country with lots of advance techological stuff. I'm not saying Japan is not good, I'm only saying this as a comparison to the Germans. Ask them about the Germans, the first thing they think about is probably the Holocaust. What I'm trying to say is, the Holocaust will never be forgotten, but the Japanese atrocities will be forgotten. It's true that older, educated people know about this, but if the young people do not know, how will the knowledge survive? As for what you said about the U.S. shifting policy thing, I'll take your word.
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Post by JjJ on Feb 22, 2006 20:46:44 GMT -5
What about Germany? Germany's been doing pretty well. They even arrest Nazi people as a way to express regret. Yet, we still learn alot about their past. Thats Because Germany knew it done wrong. It followed the wrong political party of that time. It just faced the facts. But japan had not realized its wrong doings. Still does not to this day. The only reason why I believe Japan is an ally with the west nowadays is because Japan is more democratic than most Asian nations. Um no. It is a monarchy not a democratic country. It has many human rights violations toward foreigners living there. Discrimination runs rampant. A foreigner that marries a japanese citizen will have no legal rights to assets. Japan obeys US because it has been defeated by them. In stead of feeling angery,It feels great respect for strong opponents. Esentially,Japan has become US's lap dog in asia.
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Post by Tim on Feb 23, 2006 0:15:40 GMT -5
Wow, your comments towards Japan were rather harsh... anyways, I know Japan is a democratic country, but Japanese citizens themselves still have many rights. I believe they can vote for a prime minister, am I wrong? The media is pretty open minded, except for when it comes to their past war crimes, of course. I think Japan should acknowledge their past crimes, because if she has so much obedience towards America, then Japan would apologize. America would do the same thing if they had done something wrong.
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diplomatic immunity
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Post by diplomatic immunity on Feb 23, 2006 16:00:42 GMT -5
Um no. It is a monarchy not a democratic country. Its a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary government, not just a monarchy as you suggested. There are different forms of Monarchy and Japan does have a democratic government. It has many human rights violations toward foreigners living there. Discrimination runs rampant. A foreigner that marries a japanese citizen will have no legal rights to assets. Japan obeys US because it has been defeated by them. In stead of feeling angery,It feels great respect for strong opponents. Esentially,Japan has become US's lap dog in asia. I agree to some extent. Sad, but most of this is so true. But its not limited only in Japan, this is a world wide problem.
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Diplomatic Immunity
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Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 23, 2006 16:03:43 GMT -5
Oops ! forgot to say for my response to the 1st statement. What I meant was that saying that its a monarchy could mislead people into thinking that it was a absolute Monarchy, which most think of when they here Monarchy.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Feb 23, 2006 18:50:05 GMT -5
I've been following this thread for quite awhile. Excellent analyses and discussion, everybody! I'll just add a few thoughts to the mix. One reason that the Germans are still discussing the Holocaust/WWII is that the rest of Europe and the U.S. will never let them forget it. Nazism took over the European world and changed it forever. Untold numbers dead: tortured, disappeared, etc. Europe had barely recovered from the prior German farce of WWI. Germans had been aggressors in Europe for a long time but WWII was the worst. They are not trusted by their fellow continentals and never will be. And don't even get the Brits started. To them, their resistance in the face of the Blitz was and still is seen as "their finest hour" as Churchill put it. Of late, British soccer fans were warned that their goose-stepping during German tournaments would not be tolerated. British memories are long! And I'm not even talking about the Jews. The Jews are another reason why the Holocaust won't be forgotten. As the Jews say, Never Again. They were almost wiped off the face of the map in an absurd, surrealistic nightmare straight out of the Brothers Grimm--burning people in ovens (some of whom were not even dead)!!!! There is also a spiritual element to this. To the Christian world, the Jews are "God's chosen people". Despite the disgrace of anti-Semitism in some quarters, the Christian world at large was horrified at the plight of the Jews and were thrilled with the birth of Israel in 1948. Prior to Hitler, Germany had been viewed as a highly evolved, cultured albeit war-like nation with Christian roots. Nazism was anti-Christian as well and was a cult of the highest kind. When Germany embraced Hitler, the Germans turned their back on their own culture and faith heritage. They terrified the white world. In short, the Germans lost their humanity. Fast forward to today. . . Believe me, young Germans are sick to death of the Holocaust and WWII. They want to move on but the rest of the world will not let them. As a result, there is a malaise in the modern German character, much like that of a whipped dog. Germans don't dream anymore--they are cautious, cynical, passive to a fault. Nationalism is verboten and has been replaced by anger, shame, or nihilism. All the modern German has today is his cigarettes, his beer, and rampant, frenzied sexual adventurism. Germany is self-destructing. Germany and Japan are indeed at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Germany is falling into a black hole with the decades of public penance it has had to pay because of Hitler. And I agree that the Japanese don't even feel the need to acknowledge that they did ANYTHING wrong. This move to globalism isn't doing anything to resolve the Sino-Japanese issues. It seems like there are some who want many others to "forgive and forget". And you can bet your bottom dollar it's the same crowd that is telling the inhabitants and victims of the former Communist countries to do the same thing. There is money to be made. . .and justice be damned!
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Post by Tim on Feb 23, 2006 20:08:39 GMT -5
This is rather off topic, but I do believe the whole Europe is a bit responsible for the first two World Wars. I mean, the Germans were the most looked down European Nation in Europe during the Age of Imperialism. Anyone heard of Otto von Bismarck? I believe he once told Europe that Germany is just as powerful as the rest of Europe. Look how they responded after the first WW: they humiliated the Germans. That's how Hitler rose (or at least one of the reasons). The fact that another Hitler didn't rise after WWII surprises me, but I guess that's because the Germans were truly regretful for their past actions. Germany is still pretty good at making cars (like BMW, so on) and other machineries. I don't think Germany is close to self destruction yet. Actually, now that I think about it, America and Japan aren't the closest friends. I believe there was an incident where Japan wanted a seat in the UN cabinet and the US didn't support her? I'm not really sure... something like that... if somebody knows better than me, please clarify.
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Post by JjJ on Feb 24, 2006 1:10:26 GMT -5
Wow, your comments towards Japan were rather harsh... On the contrary, my comments are not out of line. It is the comments and actions of the Japanese Government/the emperor who are out of line. Do you think the victim's comments are out of line too? anyways,I know Japan is a democratic country, but Japanese citizens themselves still have many rights. I believe they can vote for a prime minister, am I wrong? The media is pretty open minded, except for when it comes to their past war crimes, of course. Japan is a monarchy with a minor hint of democracy. Yes they can vote. But it is often their parliament who pass laws without public approval or sometimes knowledge. I think Japan should acknowledge their past crimes, because if she has so much obedience towards America, then Japan would apologize. America would do the same thing if they had done something wrong. I agree with you. But current US policy, is to turn a blinds eye on the situation. Condaleca rice's comments on japan hits home. ("It is an internal country matter") Its a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary government, not just a monarchy as you suggested. There are different forms of Monarchy and Japan does have a democratic government. Oops ! forgot to say for my response to the 1st statement. What I meant was that saying that its a monarchy could mislead people into thinking that it was a absolute Monarchy, which most think of when they here Monarchy. Yes you are right. But the government is not democratic. The social structure forces everyone to think and learn as one unit. People are not allowed to think differently from a group. I agree to some extent. Sad, but most of this is so true. But its not limited only in Japan, this is a world wide problem. Yes it is a worldly problem. But The japanese government always turns a blind eye. It never tries to make a difference. This move to globalism isn't doing anything to resolve the Sino-Japanese issues. It seems like there are some who want many others to "forgive and forget". And you can bet your bottom dollar it's the same crowd that is telling the inhabitants and victims of the former Communist countries to do the same thing. There is money to be made. . .and justice be damned! I can only quote the title of a metallica song. "Sad But True" Actually, now that I think about it, America and Japan aren't the closest friends. I believe there was an incident where Japan wanted a seat in the UN cabinet and the US didn't support her? I'm not really sure... something like that... if somebody knows better than me, please clarify. No your thinking of something else. US always backed Japan on the UNC. It was Korea and china who opposed the idea. Japan's Prime minister was visiting the war shrine. Also japan was claiming islands of of china and Korea. Japan and US has conflicts over beef importation.
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 24, 2006 10:09:57 GMT -5
Bungallodweller, i felt compelled to participate again on this thread because i assumed that "forgive and forget" was something i said before.....if it wasn´t for me don´t take this to you please.
we live in a neo-liberal, democratic, post-modern time and everybody has the right to speak up about whatever issue with such propriety that i just wonder what is necessary to see the real picture of things and i believe the thruth comes from confrontation with you only....Did you ever thought why u have so much hatred towards japanese or it was something that u assumed only because you heard of facts (i don´t doubt the facts and never questioned them, my family suffered greatly because of it too)?
I wrote what i did till now because i think that this question affects my life and who iam and i´m not trying to erase past wrongdoings of others on anyones minds specially mine, but i´ve been blinded by my own people thru fake pride and thru envy, anger and resentment, feelings that add me nothing and has no effect whatsoever in making me evolve to a better being or a better korean fellow.....On the opposite it has made me feel inferior, closed and revenge minded.
It is not wrong to remember how your country suffered so much in the hands of others but it is wrong to direct it to someone as all your problems begget from them and i could say no more of this concept if you are not willing to understand korea as yourself, you are korea also and everything you do affects korea and koreans......
Personally i can only think that this claim for justice is a modern bs (allow me the poethic-orc license) like the "political correctness of people of nowadays" since atrocities and extermination of the whole race is not a jewish or korean or european burden only and atrocities has been done by everynation if not to others to their own people....
regards
*bad word substituted Chigirl*
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Post by sunami chun on Feb 24, 2006 14:52:50 GMT -5
Answering directly about german example...
Nazism/fascism was not born in Germany, anti-semitism was not born on modern europe, many countries like spain in late 14-15th century with inquisition (u should see the torture equipments they had then and we cannot say that it had to do with religion, because it was also the beggining of enlightment period in italy like the enlightment of germany in late 19th century with philosophy, arts, etc) and russia with pogroms massively assassinated jews....in 19-20th century irrational anti-semitism was currently happening in every nation of europe under a thin cloth, Germany transformed thoughts and hidden actions on open actions and now it is their fate to pay for it for the whole of europe including british people that not so much before were doing atrocities all over the world with english colonization (the beggining of the british enlightment, it seems we cannot connect formal education to clearence of human misbehaviours), exterminating hundreds of races like aborigenes in australia, indians in america, several tribes in africa by traffic, instigating war among arabs, etc,etc,etc. French people, dutch people, italian people, going for the gold in the same pace.....And since europeans conquered the world and sold the idealized concept of democracy, liberal, equal, fraternal that is a fairy tale for little kids they also developed the war times tribunal to judge world war crimes, and behind this curtain of defenders of the democracy and the free inspiring beautifull world they are pushing every nation to abide for it for their sake when they never said sorry for the world to become such a dangerous place to live in, and they shouldn´t really, it happened because we all contributed to that and are still contributing......every european is bad?nothing good can have come from them?democracy, neo-liberalism brought nothing good?what is the real value of concepts?or many concepts just got twisted because of biased views on history? and the eternal contradiction of answering whose fault is this if not theirs never mine?......by bringing into the spotlight only the holocaust and the japanese atrocities in the modern era is only a way to delude yourself that this world is white or black, that you are good and others are always worst, and now once again the free (not so free of delusions) world is calling arabs simply terrorists as if they just decided to become it, creating a pre world war atmosphere again, world prejudice against them, it is the witch hunt of post modern days.....it all start with prejudice and from little by little u have created a demon, history is circling again, one more round into the same stupidity....should we buy it raw and even ask for guarantee?
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Post by florel on Feb 24, 2006 16:55:21 GMT -5
I guess the great economic crisis in 1929 was one of important reasons of Nazi's advent. After WWII, the U.S. helped to reestablish Europe economically with Marshall plan. The european antisemitism existed even during the whole medieval period. Because of religious reason. They were considered as persecutors of the Christ. The jewish usuriers had bad fames. Theologically, they were considered as stealing time, which belonged to God not to men, because they gained from money loan using time gap. But how they could have had other jobs when they were not admitted in every social fields ? Regarding Holocaust, it has been less told that Hitler also massacred gypsies and german handicapped. The post modern historians point out that historical writings have been influenced by political relationship (- the concept of politic in large sense). I agree with Sunami Chun that Koreans should abandon their narrow and resentful mind. At the same time, I'm worrying about the actual Japanese extreme right wing politicians, not for the past but for the future. Why are we learning history ? Not to repeat silly past. The japanese people I met here were mostly gentle, mild and more civilized than Koreans. But their perspectives are more directed to the Western countries than to Asia. Several years ago, I met a young Japanese historian. Even though I told nothing about history, she started to tell that she knew about comfort women during WWII and criticized Koizumi's visit of Yasukuni (spell?). And she also said that she was in minority group in Japan. Perhaps the Japanese need to learn more history, while Koreans need to have more humor sense and diplomatically refined attitude.
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