|
Post by sunami chun on Feb 26, 2006 3:05:55 GMT -5
why are you guys so much in a defensive stance? did you actually read what i wrote?every nation has it problems with others and they should solve it between them not involving third parts, NEVER, NEVER, said china has no knowledge of the suffering japam inflictected on you JUST THAT EACH NATION HAS TO SOLVE BY THEMSELVES ALRIGHT? you are really distorting what i wrote.....AND tim i don't need to flatter china for anything if not only for my own amusement of my personal views and the nice chinese people i've met....
|
|
|
Post by sunami chun on Feb 26, 2006 3:25:25 GMT -5
"the relationship between korea and japan is most known by us...."
did i say china in this sentence?if you read letter by letter r-e-l-a-t-i-o-n-s-h-i-p (synonim for bond, exchange) u will see that i said relationship between k-o-r-e-a and j-a-p-a-n only that dates back more than a thousand years ago, the relation between the two countries is their issue only and if you want to help us understand it because maybe u will understand your plroblem with the japanese try to help sincerely with calls for reasonability...don't put more wood into the fire of misunderstandings please...
|
|
|
Post by JjJ on Feb 26, 2006 19:44:26 GMT -5
"the relationship between korea and japan is most known by us...." did i say china in this sentence?if you read letter by letter r-e-l-a-t-i-o-n-s-h-i-p (synonim for bond, exchange) u will see that i said relationship between k-o-r-e-a and j-a-p-a-n only that dates back more than a thousand years ago, the relation between the two countries is their issue only and if you want to help us understand it because maybe u will understand your plroblem with the japanese try to help sincerely with calls for reasonability...don't put more wood into the fire of misunderstandings please... Your insinuating that only korea and japan is the only two nations that historically, have had problems with each other. China also had historical relations with japan too. wether the relation is historical or not,is not the point. There is nothing wrong with national pride. It reflects how proud they are to be the race that they are. It is better than losing an ethnic's background. I know this because the Chinese are getting more and more Westernized everyday. I think pride is the problem. Japanese pride bases itself on militaristic,imperialistic and wartime views. Pride was the reason for japan's atrocities in WW2. It felt superiority over other nations and people. It is pride that prevents japan from being peaceful today. Pride is what stops japan from saying sorry for the past wrong actions. They will never admit defeat because of that precious pride they seek. Time i agree that China is becoming more western. I'm sure they will all convert to christianity eventually.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Feb 26, 2006 21:43:22 GMT -5
I can't tell if your comment on Chinese converting into Christians is suppose to be a good or bad thing. Although I have nothing against Christians, I have to say that if China becomes Westernized, China will lose her culture. I really don't want that to happen. There are just too many things that Christianity and Chinese ancient culture do not agree on. (i.e. ancestor worship, absolute obedience to elders, etc.) Also, let us not forget that Christianity is not the only thing that Western culture has. It could also mean drug influences, dying hairs, bad parties, so on. There are negative influences of Western cultures too. Bottom line is, China will have to choose between to maintain her culture and stop the spreading of Christianity, or to block off missioners and maintain their prideful culture. I'm afraid I have to go with the second one.
I don't think the Japanese are that prideful, otherwise they wouldn't be worshipping the Americans. Why don't they write books on saying how evil Americans were for nuking their cities?
|
|
Diplomatic Immunity
Guest
|
Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 27, 2006 9:43:30 GMT -5
Diplomatic immunity, You say that it had more political implications with the nazi's but this view is wrong since historically certified is the fact that nazis used europeans centuries of slowly breed prejudice against jews to do what they did......it was not the imposition of hitler's nightmare that we are all believed to think, but in a great extent europe's wish.......... I agree that Nazism grew out of the deeply rooted prejudice of europe, but the rise of it was politically and economically motivated. My response to the religion aspect was because of what bungalowdweller posted. If you read Mein Kampf, Hitler clearly stated that in his youth he rarely saw any jews and that he only knew of the persecutions of jews because of their religion, which he rejected as a youth. It was when he traveled to Vienna did he encountered Anti-Semitism in the local newspaper. His resentment came out of the realization of how Germans was seen at the time ie: Germans praising France and the Jews were involved in the arts, finance, writings, etc, while little was mentioned of Germans. Europe deeply rooted hatred of the jews was because of religious principles, but that changed in the imperial ages of 18th,19th century, and early 20th century when Nationalism took over. In Hitler and the Nazi case, they use the Pan-Germanism movement in order to bring Germans together, used the "Aryan Race" concept to distance themselves for the rest of the races (bringing racism into the cause) and made jews a race instead of people with a different religious practice, used the economical breakdown of WW1 and the depression toward the jewish financiers, etc. It was all done politically. If he just used europe religious prejudice he wouldn't have lasted long, he even said that the Christian Socialist Party mistake was they focused too much on the religious aspect rather than something people could physically see and identify with. How to capture a person with no religious faith into anti-semitism? How can average citizens see themselves more superior than other citizens? sure there your issues of tibet, etc, but despite it i've never met or heard of any of you guys saying things like china is the cultural matrix of korea or being arrogant towards us and i expect it doesn't change with the growth of china.... i think there is a mutual respect that go beyond politics and i apreciate that, but we koreans shouldn't say anything about tibet nor the public opinion, this must be solved by the two countries only, See, this type of logic is why so many countries get invaded and colonized. I mean look at your statement,"Sure there are issues of Tibet, but who cares about that, China never said anything bad about Korea so Koreans shouldn't care about what China does. " That attitude will only last for so long. That is why Germany moved quickly over europe in WW2, everyone was just sitting there and concentrating only on their matters when little did they know they were being bombed and invaded. Didn't the Imjin war, WW2, or the Japanese occupation in Korea give you a perfect example of being shelled in and not caring about outside actions. There are just too many things that Christianity and Chinese ancient culture do not agree on. (i.e. ancestor worship, absolute obedience to elders,) So to be absolute obedient to your elders, you have to have be involved in ancient Chinese culture? I know you were probably referring to Confucius principles but by making the statement above your generalizing again.
|
|
|
Post by sunami chun on Feb 27, 2006 11:32:48 GMT -5
Diplomatic immunity, all my statements since the beggining untill now have to do with a human aproach of the history, that the revolution or enlightment starts in the individual rather than a social movement. And the general hystoric perception of the world by individuals is very poor... If we look in a microcosmos like this forum everybody has different opionions that are based more on personal experiences than hystorical facts. Hystory is used by all of us to try to understand this world and the Bad feelings calls for justification, for understanding that is more frequently based on fake pride since we many times non intentionally focus in only one aspect of hystory that interests us and hide or just put aside other facts.
It is very different when i say "china and japan have their issue, it is their problem and we shouldn't care because you can put in balance these personal and national feelings" and gather the correct facts of hystory or at least a more profound vision of history that shows no blackish or whiteish world......"What i actually said and if you read carefully thru out this thread was "we koreans still don't understand with a sincere spirit what happened and it hurts us still but aside the fact that what happened was similar, the najing massacrer or japanese colonization and imjim wars it has to be dealt by individuals alone, and there is a korean individual in me with particular korean feelings and thoughts that are different from chinese.
The individual approach of history that i believe in is not discussing facts but it is trying to see it without false perceptions. When i was angry with japanese, history was the playground where i mounted facts as i wished them, my confused feelings was creating a confusing mind and it didn't help, also the many uninmportant justifications that my own people presented me called for my enlightenment (and maybe i could see it better than koreans who lives there because i'm in a foreign country) .
There is another personal belief when i said "don't get involved in other affairs..." that has to do with solve your problem first and then help.....
Real history, seen by eyes without prejudice and sincere mind reinforces that each individual collaborated to the world become so dangerous , if you think you had nothing to do with the facts in europe directly, people had it indirectly by continuously justifying it with hystorical facts when it had only to do with biased views on history that is all humans natural behaviour.....when u analyse history with rioughteousness, principles and sincere mind we japanese, koreans and chinese, germans are all the same, we all did good things and we all did bad things, what really differentiates us is our approach with a thru sincere heart....
|
|
|
Post by sunami chun on Feb 27, 2006 11:43:50 GMT -5
Hitler put his wrong feelings first and justifyed war with history, if had he read real history (profound and unqualifying history) it would be impossible for him to justify it or drive others into this madness, i will sustain my simplistic point of view, prejudice thru biased views on history that comes from lack of self criticism created the nightmare...
|
|
Diplomatic Immunity
Guest
|
Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 27, 2006 13:19:52 GMT -5
When i was angry with japanese, history was the playground where i mounted facts as i wished them, my confused feelings was creating a confusing mind and it didn't help, also the many uninmportant justifications that my own people presented me called for my enlightenment (and maybe i could see it better than koreans who lives there because i'm in a foreign country) . It was you who limited the historical facts you gathered and it was you who ventured off that limitation, but you can't expect every individual to do the same. Also,for you to say that you clearly see things better than koreans living in Korea is, quite frankly, generalizing. (What is it with this board and generalization?)
|
|
|
Post by sunami chun on Feb 27, 2006 16:09:17 GMT -5
you guys really take everything personal and you know also how to distort everything... If you got problems on sharing opinions i have nothing to do with it...i guess defending reasonability and clear history views is not much charismatic in any time. I'm no guardian of principles or righteousness and i never intended to think i'm better because i got enlightment by books and sharing opinions with other people than you, all my knowledge comes from sharing so i have nothing else to add here.....
|
|
|
Post by ginnycat5 on Feb 27, 2006 16:15:26 GMT -5
There's no need to keep on flattering China. I know we have issues, such as the Tibetan issue, that we have to deal with. I do think this should be between Chinese and Tibetans only, and that America and everyone else should stay out. . Can't the people of the world express disapproval of huge China bullying little Tibet? Why should we close our eyes to the takeover and crushing of a culture?
|
|
|
Post by JjJ on Feb 27, 2006 19:41:18 GMT -5
I can't tell if your comment on Chinese converting into Christians is suppose to be a good or bad thing. Although I have nothing against Christians, I have to say that if China becomes Westernized, China will lose her culture. I really don't want that to happen. There are just too many things that Christianity and Chinese ancient culture do not agree on. (i.e. ancestor worship, absolute obedience to elders, etc.) Also, let us not forget that Christianity is not the only thing that Western culture has. It could also mean drug influences, dying hairs, bad parties, so on. There are negative influences of Western cultures too. Bottom line is, China will have to choose between to maintain her culture and stop the spreading of Christianity, or to block off missioners and maintain their prideful culture. I'm afraid I have to go with the second one. Clearly Christianity conversion is a bad thing. The chinese have a different belief of philosophy. Christianity is too strict and mind controlling. It would not be good for the chinese or its culture. Btw absolute obedience of elders is the wrong interpretation. It really means respect for elders. It is actually the british who brought elements of western (bad)culture to HK first. So its not like it is suddenly appearing. I agree that china should stop missionaries from entering the country. There was an article i read once. It was about how a missionary leader was caught illegally smuggling other Missionary groups in china for conversion purposes and fund raising. I don't think the Japanese are that prideful, otherwise they wouldn't be worshipping the Americans. Why don't they write books on saying how evil Americans were for nuking their cities? I have answered why they don't hate america as an enemy. Remember it is a cultural difference in japan. Japan respects advisories who show they are stronger then they are. Clearly that is what happen to japan. Also US helped to form japans constitution. Can't the people of the world express disapproval of huge China bullying little Tibet? Why should we close our eyes to the takeover and crushing of a culture? Ginny you are also generalizing. I don't like what its doing either. But there is clearly a reason for it. Tibet and dali lama always pushing china with democratic reform. Even use the media as a defensive/offensive weapon. Trying to get outside influence to do their bidding. Again i don't agree with it. But china has its reasons.
|
|
|
Post by ginnycat5 on Feb 27, 2006 20:38:59 GMT -5
Can't the people of the world express disapproval of huge China bullying little Tibet? Why should we close our eyes to the takeover and crushing of a culture? Ginny you are also generalizing. I don't like what its doing either. But there is clearly a reason for it. Tibet and dali lama always pushing china with democratic reform. Even use the media as a defensive/offensive weapon. Trying to get outside influence to do their bidding. Again i don't agree with it. But china has its reasons. Tibet and dalai lama --pushing China--?! That's backwards. China has Tibet in its fist. imo.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Feb 27, 2006 20:46:27 GMT -5
OK, "absolute" obedience to elders was an embellishment. But I think everyone catches the drift. I agree with JjJ on the Christianity conversion thing. I am so sick of people bullying China because of Tibet! I also find it interesting how NO ONE bullies America because of Alaska, Hawaii, and Texas! All of them were once independent countries, and America brainwashed them all!! To Tibetan Independence supporters, please shut up about how evil China is. Americans have done FAR worse. The next time someone yells "China is an a^%%#*& for claiming Tibet", I swear I will scream "America is a bigger a%$@#$% for conquering Texas, Alaska, and Hawaii!" Independence for Texas, Hawaii, and Alaska! Ginny, so are you saying that Americans were right to invade Iraq?! They accuse Iraq of nuclear weapons, and what the hell have they find? NOTHING!! Now the whole Europe and middle East hates America because of that! Smart move, involving other people's business! *took out another bad word*
|
|
|
Post by chigirl68 on Feb 28, 2006 8:58:47 GMT -5
I understand this is becoming quite a heated debate. Tim, I replaced 2 words in your post. I think it's a little late for these 3 states to separate from the rest of the U.S. There are many Americans that do not agree with what Bush did and is still doing. As with any country, we shouldn't think all people in a country agree with the leader's politics and policies.
I appreciate everyone's opinions and have learned quite a bit from you all but let's try to keep this conversation civil.
|
|
Diplomatic Immunity
Guest
|
Post by Diplomatic Immunity on Feb 28, 2006 10:40:35 GMT -5
you guys really take everything personal and you know also how to distort everything... If you got problems on sharing opinions i have nothing to do with it...i guess defending reasonability and clear history views is not much charismatic in any time. I'm no guardian of principles or righteousness and i never intended to think i'm better because i got enlightment by books and sharing opinions with other people than you, all my knowledge comes from sharing so i have nothing else to add here..... Firstly Surnami, no one took your statements personal. (Where did you get that conclusion from?) Secondly, I wrote a response to your post that stated that you was using historical facts to justify your past hatred toward the japanese,right? You clearly wrote "When i was angry with japanese, history was the playground where i mounted facts as i wished them". The main words are Facts as I wished, meaning that you were probably intentionally looking at historical facts that involved Japanese cruelties to justify why you were so angry at them. WW2, Imjin war, Japanese occupation, the death tolls by Japanese troops, the assassination of the queen by the Japanese troops, the kidnappings of craftsmen, the sex slave operation, etc. and using those historical facts to your advantage to oppose any other positive spin on Japan. You even stated it: i´ve been taught all my life for all the koreans that we are better than japanese, we created, they´ve copied, we are good and they are evil, no one never said japanese have many good things that we can learn from, we were never rational about this issue, we´ve all looked them with lots of regret, envy and anger, Thirdly, from what I 've read in this thread, you claimed someone was angry and left like you are doing now. PRLA, i don´t understand why u are so angry, and everytime i try to get your point i just misses it because of it, u just refutes the arguments and really it doesn´t add nothing, u are doing exactly what i´m trying to explain what koreans are doing about this issue, you said "I'm not certain,But it sounds like you are taken in by political propaganda of your country..." what do you know about me outside of what I say here in this board? What kind of argument do you want me to use against this useless affirmation? well (maybe) see you guys in another thread....i´m leaving and the poster response: Dear sunami chun I am not angry. I have no clue why you think that? I rarely use smilies as i hate using them. Also i didn't refute all your ideas. Infact i agreed with most of what you have written. Stop constanly running away because someone either took your statements wrong or you didn 't fully explain yourself the way you wanted to. People are not angry or defensive with your statements because the response wasn't what you wanted it to be. You stated: I do want to share my opinion because i think by exposing my thoughts someone can help me make it better or show me other sides that alone i cannot see, If you truly mean that then stop thinking everyone is against your viewpoints and try to take something out of this discussion, whether good or bad.
|
|