|
Post by donilpark on Jul 23, 2005 20:10:51 GMT -5
So you want to blame everyone for this? Sure, I mean, because land belonged to no one originally in the beginning. It was someone powerful that started grabbing land as one's own and made other less powrful people into his/her own subjects. So maybe, following your logic, no one may be entitled to anything. Korea really doesn't even have any claim even to the Korean peninsula, since Korean ancestors invaded and conquered/merged the natives living there. Or, do even those 'natives' (now nonexistent) have any right to say that it is their land, their history? What about the 'natives' even before them? They weren't born with a seal on their forehead granting them the right to the land we now know as belonging to Korea, right? So yeah, by your logic, it's ok to invade someone and kill all the others, because that's what the humanity has been doing since the beginning and no one's really different. No one can escape the blame. Right? Isn't that what you're saying?
...Just because the US and Russia are doing the 'same thing' dosen't mean China is justified to do it too.
|
|
|
Post by donilpark on Jul 23, 2005 20:24:23 GMT -5
Thanks bungalowdweller for the situation in Russia. I didn't really know too much about there. Now I know that this is not just a problem confined to a number of peoples. It concerns many different races and ethnic groups. It really is a grave issue.
|
|
|
Post by ginnycat5 on Jul 23, 2005 21:22:41 GMT -5
btw, I read an article about the tens of thousands of computer hackers China has been training for years...with what aim?? Sorry, I made a huge error here. It was North Korea that trains computer hackers, and it is a hundred each year who graduate.
|
|
|
Post by donilpark on Jul 23, 2005 21:32:21 GMT -5
But there was a news a while ago that thousands of Chinese hackers would attack Japanese servers via Korean servers because Japan blocked the access from China.
|
|
|
Post by JPh on Jul 24, 2005 7:32:37 GMT -5
Hi there, my background is of Korean extraction. But I kinda agree with "wiked", that we should drop this pointless attack. I think the problem is that all three North East Asian countries have a problem of nationalism and xenophobia. And all three have habits of distorting history. It's as if pride gets in the way of looking at history through unbiased minds. I'm not going to say anything about Japan or China, but I think Korea is overly obssessed with looking back. Yes, we should learn from history, but we should not let history get in the way of our future. Let us enjoy this drama without the baggage. I think this story is so special looking at the odds that Yi soon shin faced: his 12 ships versus 2000 enemy ships.
|
|
|
Post by donilpark on Jul 24, 2005 11:39:45 GMT -5
I totally agree with you. We should stop this pointless fight. In fact, that's what I've been saying all along. China attacks Korea, and Korea criticized that. China acts, and Korea reacts. If China drops their ridiculous claims, then there's nothing that Korea could react on. Korea would only criticize China in defense of itself, just like our admiral did. Or are you saying that he should have done nothing and just let the Japanese attack and pillage Korea? And that Koreans now should just sit back and watch as China takes away their heritage and history? It's exactly the same thing, you see? What China is doing is invasion, and what Korea is doing is defense.
And just so I tell you, if anything, Korea undervalues its own history. That's a serious problem for Koreans.
You say as if history could get in the way of future, but know this: if you don't resolve the problems of the past, than you can't move on at all. Just because you don't want fight, you can't pretend the problem doesn't exist and try to go on. Strong foundation for true friendship can only be made when the problems of the past are first resolved and discussed over. Simply dropping the subject as if it doesn't exist only makes the problem worse and worse. Koreans want peace more than anyone. It has been invaded so many times because of its geopolitical situation in its history that fight is something that Koreans are loath to do.
So yeah, if you want to enjoy the drama without any moral judgement or thoughts, than go ahead. Just look at the costumes, building, and actors and actresses. I won't do it. I will learn from the drama, I'll do what's right and think what's right. Not just watch the show mindlessly.
|
|
|
Post by JPh on Jul 24, 2005 12:37:42 GMT -5
donilpark, I think you're going overboard here...
History IS important, but it should not get in the way of good relations with Japan and China. It's in Korea's best interest to get along well with both countries because their populations far outnumber Koreans. Korea now even has the lowest birth rate in the world. There is no way Korea can win in a conflict with any of these countries. And Korea is not totally innocent when it comes to distorting its history. I think Koreans should learn and teach their history. But don't worry and be obessed about what others think or not think, and what others teach or not teach.
|
|
|
Post by donilpark on Jul 24, 2005 13:17:42 GMT -5
You keep sounding like one can keep the issue of history out of international relations. You can't leave the issue of military, economy, politics, etc, and all other kinds of issues out and go on. It's not like these nations are strangers whose involvement with each other is just a good handshake and then they won't see each other again. No, these nations have been there long (that's where the history comes in) and if they were to live peacefully with each other, the existing problems must first be resolved. Leaving unsolved problems to rot is only turning your eye the other way. That won't get you anywhere. You can't, you shouldn't hand over your heritage so that you can get along well with stronger, more populous nations. That's like selling your parents to be friends with a rich guy. Not to insult you or anything, but can you tell me where Korea distorts its history? What, the fact that Korean government doesn't teach the bright side of the Japanese colonial rule? Korean atrocity in Vietnam? What do you exaclty mean "Korea is not totally innocent when it comes to distorting its history?" But remember, these are passive, benign 'distortions,' if you call it that. These are not attempts at downplaying other peoples' histories in order to make Koran history greater in comparison.
You're right, but for the wrong reason. Korea doesn't teach its people the existence of Hwanguk or Baedal Shinshi. And they teach that Old Chosun was the first Korean nation. That's a serious understatement, if anything. So they teach that 'Hongikingan' (ûðìÌìÑÊà: Let the benefit be to all humanity) is the national policy of old Chosun, when it was actually the one of the national policies of Baedal Shinshi along with 'Gwangmyeongise' (ÎÃÙ¥ì¤á¦: Shine the light on the world) and 'Jeseihwa' (ðá¦ì¤ûù: Make all the world civil) Korean people lost their true spirit already. If you don't know the significance of this error, it's a long story. But in a nutshell, this means that Koreans are confused about their roots. This is already a problem big enough.
Yeah, it would be nice if you can forget about what others teach or not teach, but to the extent that it concerns Korea, she can't just sit back. I mean, it doesn't matter if China teaches its children to clean their body in a bathtub or with a shower. But it's a different story if China starts teaching its children something like Korea belonged to them. If you don't advertise yourself and let the world know, then no one else will do it for you. Koreans know this better than anyone. Don't make this sound so simplistic or unrelated. They are all related. What Japan does surely affects Korea in one way or another, and what China does affects Korea all the same. And vice versa. This is not an individual problem. It's something where everyone should get together and solve together.
|
|
|
Post by wiked on Jul 24, 2005 20:30:59 GMT -5
Hi there, my background is of Korean extraction. But I kinda agree with "wiked", that we should drop this pointless attack. I think the problem is that all three North East Asian countries have a problem of nationalism and xenophobia. And all three have habits of distorting history. It's as if pride gets in the way of looking at history through unbiased minds. I'm not going to say anything about Japan or China, but I think Korea is overly obssessed with looking back. Yes, we should learn from history, but we should not let history get in the way of our future. Let us enjoy this drama without the baggage. I think this story is so special looking at the odds that Yi soon shin faced: his 12 ships versus 2000 enemy ships. Completely agree with all your points JPh. But i think it has to do more with national pride and peole showing/having face. donilpark, I think you're going overboard here... History IS important, but it should not get in the way of good relations with Japan and China. Again i agree with ya JPh. I guess donilpark is just trying to be a net troll to spark some angst in everyone. Its best to just ignore people like that. Unless the moderators want to do something about him/her first.......
|
|
|
Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 24, 2005 20:47:01 GMT -5
I guess donilpark is just trying to be a net troll to spark some angst in everyone. Its best to just ignore people like that. Unless the moderators want to do something about him/her first....... Everyone? Isn't that a bit unfair? I thought we were all having a spirited discussion here. Angst? Maybe yourself, but I don't feel any angst. As a non-Korean, I find the disagreements instructive. I doubt that the moderators "want to do something" about him. Donilpark is a valued voice on this board. Why the unkindness? Because you disagree with him? How fruitful, instructive or positive is that? I know that there is a nationwide heat-wave, is it affecting how we treat others? P-l-e-e-z-e let's agree to disagree as adults!
|
|
|
Post by donilpark on Jul 24, 2005 21:03:33 GMT -5
If you want to have a private talk, use PM. Or if this was directed at me (yeah, as if I wasn't listening), that was pretty rude and crude.
No one really raised their voices above the critical level to turn the discussion into a fight. But what bothers you? The fact that there is someone out there who thinks like I do, or is it that you just don't like the way I talk here? Because if it the former, I can't do anything for you, sorry. If it's the latter, you can simply stay away from the topic, especially since you don't seem terribly informed about this entire issue or Chinese and Korean history.
...don't turn this into a matter of netiquette just because you have nothing more to say about history. (I would have at least hoped for your refutation on my post, wiked. Not just showing joy at having friend and simply agreeing with him.)
|
|
|
Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 25, 2005 8:14:28 GMT -5
You keep sounding like one can keep the issue of history out of international relations. You can't leave the issue of military, economy, politics, etc, and all other kinds of issues out and go on. It's not like these nations are strangers whose involvement with each other is just a good handshake and then they won't see each other again. Leaving unsolved problems to rot is only turning your eye the other way. That won't get you anywhere. This is not an individual problem. It's something where everyone should get together and solve together. In thinking about this exchange I sympathize with those who don't want to "hear politics", they just want to enjoy the program. For most people around the world ,politics is "swine filth" an old-world saying goes. But I also agree with Winston Churchill who said that those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. I agree with donilpark that unsolved (for that matter, even unspoken) problems just fester and cause poison. I also agree that these are problems that need to be solved together. The biggest single problem in the former Warsaw Pact countries and the former USSR today is that, unlike after WWII, not one Communist official has been brought to trial. Scores of families were destroyed in the 50 years that the Communist ruled. Millions disappeared ( the latest scholarly count stands at 57 million) in the 50s into the Soviet-style gulag concentration camps--men, women, And children--never to be heard from again. Yet the world is silent. Why? Isn't it odd that Nazis in their 80s are being hunted down world-wide while leading Communists as well as those military who presided over the gulags and torture chambers are walking around Europe, sitting in the cafes, living it up, free as birds?? What's wrong with this picture? Could it be that those running the countries are complicit? Today those nations are run by former Secret Police and high ranking Communist Party officials and their children. The so-called global community doesn't care. They just want the common man to shut up so that they can trade and further enrich themselves. Small nations are like pawns in the global chessboard--no one much cares. We must learn to listen to one another, even if we don't like what the other guy says. If someone bothers me too much I agree to disagree and leave it at that. The denial of atrocities, committed by anyone, at anytime is not right. Every victim had a family--a brother, sister, spouse, neighbor, community who/which was diminished by the act against that victim. The stories of terror/atrocities are passed on from generation to generation and people who had no personal loss learn to hate. So much more for nations. A comparison of two modern nations, Ireland and Germany, will suffice. Germany has learned to face its past and move on as best as it can. Attempts at justice are on-going. In this way the younger generation is free to move on with the task of moving the nation ahead. In Ireland, it's another story. Northern Ireland has been at war with itself since Cromwell, fed with $$ from the Republican South and loads of bucks from the good ole U.S. of A. Who provides the $$ here? Well-meaning 3rd and 4th generation Irish-Americans who want to punish the Protestants or Catholics, whichever side the giver is on. They learned their hate from the stories passed on about their families. When I grew up in Chicago as a girl, I knew which ethnic Irish pubs were the "Protestant" ones and which were the "Catholic" ones!!! This insanity has got to stop. We can all learn from one another. Please forgive my rant, everybody. . .particularly those who don't like politics on the board. . .Ya'll just got me started.
|
|
|
Post by meowmeow on Jul 25, 2005 12:33:36 GMT -5
here is my rant.
I think talking is important. If you do not talk and understand each other, some crazy people drive planes into your building and you wonder what the hell I did it to you.
Korea is interesting country. It is rare country which transformed its ultra talibanistic culture into modern culture. It is rare country to be industrialized after colonziation and war. It is rare country to achieve democracy after military dicatorship. It is rare country which old cold era ideology haunting her. There is some clue or at least talk point there.
Look at korean flag. I am all up for it to change korean flag. When korea talk about 6 party talk, it is all in korean flag even the shape of Takguk matching with DMZ, So history matters right now right there in korea just for survival sake.
|
|
|
Post by ginnycat5 on Jul 25, 2005 12:53:43 GMT -5
I guess donilpark is just trying to be a net troll to spark some angst in everyone. Its best to just ignore people like that. Unless the moderators want to do something about him/her first....... This seems like a productive discussion to me. The idea of suppressing dissent is disturbing, and not likely to lead to courteous behavior. "Let's be careful out there, folks."
|
|
|
Post by wiked on Jul 25, 2005 19:48:03 GMT -5
The idea of suppressing dissent is disturbing, and not likely to lead to courteous behavior. "Let's be careful out there, folks." I think it works both ways. But the point is not supression Of ideas. Anyone can get their point across civily and politely with out offending entire races of people.
|
|