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Post by donilpark on Jul 25, 2005 20:10:58 GMT -5
Well, I would say it's ok to suppress the idea of suppressing the ideas.
First, I'm biased, then I'm a net trol, and now I'm a racist? Can't wait to hear what you'll come up with next. Just stay to the point. You still haven't given't me your anser to the my last post on page 2 of this thread. Ah, what the hey, I already know you have no intention to stay on topic and got nothing else to say than to insult me with those accusations in a pathetic attempt to undermine the credibility of my argument. Forget about it, then.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 25, 2005 21:09:25 GMT -5
I already know you have no intention to stay on topic and got nothing else to say than to insult me with those accusations in a pathetic attempt to undermine the credibility of my argument. Forget about it, then. I only have one question here for wiked--What directorate do you work for?
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Post by JPh on Jul 25, 2005 23:26:41 GMT -5
I only have one thing to say. Of course history is important. Let me say this, I too am concerned what is happening with China's sudden claims that Koguryo was a Chinese territory. Their claims are relatively very recent, starting from the mid 1990's. Before then, they more or less recognized that Koguryo was Korea's history. Why the abrupt 180 degrees change in history all of a sudden? Korea has been claiming Koguryo as Korean for thousands of years, while China has started to do so only from the 1990's. Another proof that stokes my suspicions: China has let lot of the historic Koguryo artifacts and places go to hell. Does a country that really believes in their heritage let such visible and important artifacts be damaged and ruined? Not certainly China. So why are they claiming Koguryo as Chinese? Because I believe they are looking at the future of North Korea. With history on their sides, they can annex North Korea, once North Korea collapses. China can just say, "we're just taking back what was once ours, so what's the problem".
HAVING SAID ALL THIS....... I really don't think this kind of political talking does not belong in this board. That's why this is the first and last time I will bring politics into this discussion. This is not a political board, it's a board to discuss a drama called Yi Soon Shin. Don't get me wrong, I like talking politics, but I think there are times and places to do so. And I don't think this is the time and place to do so. Of course, you're all are free to write whatever subject you want, and I'm not trying to censor anyone. I'm just expressing my opinons on this matter, just like everyone else has the right to express whatever views they have.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 26, 2005 0:14:56 GMT -5
Ok. I see that you at least understand what I was saying and that you just don't like the fact that an issue like this is discussed here. But this topic is not exactly about Yi Sunshin from the beginning... And that's why I even proposed to talk about this on some other board to wiked. I mean, blame ginnycat5 for making a thread like this on a board for Yi Sunshin, not me. And it's not like what I say leaks out from this thread and taints the entire board. No matter how loud I shout here, you don't get to hear it if you don't come inside. But in any case, do we have to be so structured like that? We could veer off a bit and talk about history in general if it happens that way. I mean, the show is a historical drama, and there's really no clear boundary of what's related to the show and what's not. Anything could be related to the show in one way or another. I won't say "If you don't want to see a topic like this, just ignore it," because, after all, I would like someone to read what I post. Otherwise it would be meaningless to post. But I want to ask if this is really something that's completely unrelated to the show. As I've stated, depending on your point of view, this is a fight between nations, just like Imjin war was. Only not with physical weapons, but with history. It is a conflic nonetheless and something that's potentially more serious than flesh and blood fight. So I see the commonality running through between Imjin war and this issue, don't you?
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Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 26, 2005 12:43:04 GMT -5
So why are they claiming Koguryo as Chinese? Because I believe they are looking at the future of North Korea. With history on their sides, they can annex North Korea, once North Korea collapses. China can just say, "we're just taking back what was once ours, so what's the problem". Thanks for the interesting post, JPh. You said "one thing" but said it so well. I never thought of this angle--how clear. . .and unfortunate.
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Post by TheBo on Jul 26, 2005 13:12:01 GMT -5
I'm moving this to YSS Tangents. I've left it here until recently because it did seem to revolve around Korean history, but over the weekend you guys have had quite a gabfest, haven't you, and the thread has expanded its purview outside YSS.
I have two notes. Wiked, please do not slander the other members of the board by calling them trolls or racists (although you did not state that directly, you did imply it). If you do not have a more effective rejoinder to an argument than insults, perhaps you ought to opt out of the discussion. The response to opinions you don't like is a rebuttal, not "shut up."
Second, I have been really pleased to see how (overall) well-modulated in tone this discussion has been. I know a lot of people think political discussion is out of bounds, but as long as it's respectful and thoughtful, I won't close it. I thank you all.
Bo
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Post by wiked on Jul 26, 2005 19:09:26 GMT -5
I have two notes. Wiked, please do not slander the other members of the board by calling them trolls or racists (although you did not state that directly, you did imply it). Bo Point noted. But Bo I feel you are being very biased here. I think it works both ways. The point is not supression Of ideas. Anyone can get their point across civily and politely without offending entire races of people regaurdless of the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok so everyone here seems to think China is the bad guy no matter,even if there are positive results of bilateral relations? But when japan does simmilar things to korea,(distort history,claimland it does not own),it is overlooked or completely ignored.
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jay
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Post by jay on Jul 30, 2005 23:09:46 GMT -5
I can't believe how irrational you are. At first you didn't believe the clear fact that China is trying to include Koguryo history into its own. Then after bungalowdweller(who you seemed to think had the same opinion with you) mentioned about the intention of China, you're saying that everyone thinks China is bad. It's not that simple problem of being bad or not bad. Finally, you're talking about Korean reaction to Japanese similar doings. Here I can't also believe how ignorant you are. About this point, first, Koreans never overlook or ignore what Japanese do either. When the history textbook issue and Dokdo Islets issue were around, Koreans presented their strong objections. A few people even cut their fingers to show their anger. And do you know the fact that when Japanese occupied Dokdo Islets illegally using the timing of Korean War, a young Korean man went to the Islets and fought against them protected them for about 3 years all alone? On what evidence you are saying that it is completely ignored? Do you mean the world, not Korea, does? Second, is it justified to distort history when other countries do the same thing? Is that your logic? That's why the peace and friendship are hard to exist in this world.
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Post by wiked on Jul 31, 2005 18:44:02 GMT -5
"I can't believe how irrational you are. At first you didn't believe the clear fact that China is trying to include Koguryo history into its own. Then after bungalowdweller(who you seemed to think had the same opinion with you) mentioned about the intention of China, you're saying that everyone thinks China is bad. It's not that simple problem of being bad or not bad. Finally, you're talking about Korean reaction to Japanese similar doings. Here I can't also believe how ignorant you are. About this point, first, Koreans never overlook or ignore what Japanese do either. When the history textbook issue and Dokdo Islets issue were around, Koreans presented their strong objections. A few people even cut their fingers to show their anger. And do you know the fact that when Japanese occupied Dokdo Islets illegally using the timing of Korean War, a young Korean man went to the Islets and fought against them protected them for about 3 years all alone? On what evidence you are saying that it is completely ignored? Do you mean the world, not Korea, does? Second, is it justified to distort history when other countries do the same thing? Is that your logic? That's why the peace and friendship are hard to exist in this world. "
What is your opinion based on? I never excluded the idea. I meant everyone in here has some sort of agenda/grudge against china for being a communist country. Basing their intolerance clearly for that reason alone, along with misguided patriotic republican propaganda. Everyone here jumping down on china's throat,even though historicaly, and even nowjapan is doing the same kind of things. Yet there is no bad mouthing from people at japan. And no just because two or more countries have a fallout does not mean they can not be good friends eventually. To say that Bilateral relations can not be formed is purely wrong.
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Post by TheBo on Aug 3, 2005 15:13:06 GMT -5
.......I meant everyone in here has some sort of agenda/grudge against china for being a communist country....there is no bad mouthing from people at japan. And no just because two or more countries have a fallout does not mean they can not be good friends eventually. To say that Bilateral relations can not be formed is purely wrong. Excuse me? When did you get the idea that people have a "grudge" against China because it is communist? That is merely your interpretation. My "grudge" against the government of China is that it is a totalitarian regime that insists upon stomping repeatedly on the rights of its neighbors and citizens. Totalitarian and Communist do not necessarily equate. In any case, I don't know where you got this idea. Second, are you saying with a straight face that no one on this board attacks Japan? So, you're simply not reading any posts that contain the word, "Japan," are you. That is my conclusion from the fact that you would make such a fatuous assertion. I agree with your last conclusion about establishment of bilateral relations. My, will wonders never cease. Bo
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Post by wiked on Aug 3, 2005 19:06:25 GMT -5
"Excuse me? When did you get the idea that people have a "grudge" against China because it is communist? That is merely your interpretation. My "grudge" against the government of China is that it is a totalitarian regime that insists upon stomping repeatedly on the rights of its neighbors and citizens. Totalitarian and Communist do not necessarily equate. In any case, I don't know where you got this idea." Nice, pour more salt on an old sore that is freshly cut. It is not my interpretation but mere fact you can look in that other thread. US sees china as the enemy simply because it has a successful economy. Japan is not a democratic nation either. Yes it also currently insists on "stomping on its neighbours and its people" It is also filthily full of human rights violations that everyone ignores. I would boldly say that Even current US is not Democratic either. Just look what Bush has done with picking nominees for heading the U.N. He chose to instill Bolton without concluding on votes from reps. even with opposition from the public. "Second, are you saying with a straight face that no one on this board attacks Japan? So, you're simply not reading any posts that contain the word, "Japan," are you. That is my conclusion from the fact that you would make such a fatuous assertion." I have read the post yes. but they are not negative post regarding to japans situation. So far it has been mainly about chinese slander,for which a good moderator should not tolerate.
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Post by donilpark on Aug 3, 2005 19:27:32 GMT -5
How can you state something like that? How do you even say that anyone has a grudge against communism without even knowing the background of each of us? For all you know, I could be an ardent communist or I may even be a Chinese myself. (of course, I'm neither, but for all you know, I or anyone else could be) Remember, although this is 'Chicago Korean Drama Fan Club,' people who post here could come from anywhere. Don't assume that you're directing your post at someone from US, or even people who are homogenous in terms of their political views. It only puts you on weaker ground for your argument. By saying what you said, you're just showing everyone that your membership in something affects your judgement of right and wrong. I'd like to think of myself as a sensible person, and to do so without a burden on my conscience, I criticize things that I think are wrong, even if it's to my benefit. At least that's the way I think it should be, and I expect others to do the same. But it doesn't seem to be the case for you. You seem to think that people would attack an object by accusing it of anything, without conscient judgement of right or wrong, but just simply because they don't like that object. There ARE good things that come from China. I never said whatever China does is wrong or that China is evil in general. I'm specifically talking about this issue of history, and in regards to this issue, I clearly see China wronging other peoples.
Even if I did have a grudge against communism (which I kind of do), it's not a taboo to openly bash communism where I live. I'm sure it's allowed on the internet too. I can criticize my own prime minister, and I get away with it fine. There's no reason why I should be afraid of speaking directly about communism and do it in a roundabout way, by talking about history stuff. So if I wanted to show my dislike about communism, I would do so straight. No need to disguise it. And like I said, the communist North Korea doesn't like what China is doing about it either. And it might help you to note that North Korea is the more radical communist than China, along with Cuba, I guess. And it might also help to remember that China is North Korea's only thing that could be called a friend. Other than China, North Korea doesn't have anyone even remotely resembling a 'friend.' And this North Korea doesn't like China's doings on this issue. Clearly, this issue is not of ideology disguised as history.
Then we should start listing all the bad things that 200+ (or whatever number there are) nations are doing, to Korea and to each other. There's no reason why we should talk about Japan at all. This is about China, and China alone. No one said Japan's wrongdoings were acceptable. You're only making a laughing matter out of yourself. Think before you write. Please.
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Post by wiked on Aug 4, 2005 20:07:56 GMT -5
"How can you state something like that? How do you even say that anyone has a grudge against communism without even knowing the background of each of us?"
Same way you can say such things without knowing someones background.
"For all you know, I could be an ardent communist or I may even be a Chinese myself. (of course, I'm neither, but for all you know, I or anyone else could be)"
The statement above just proves you have no idea about current events in "Communist" nations. You just see communism as a pure evil blindly accepting info fed to you.They are not as hard lined as you and others may think. It is slowly evolving to a nation of freedom. Only reason why it is not a rapid change,is because there would be economic colapse. Good example would be Russia.
"Remember, although this is 'Chicago Korean Drama Fan Club,' people who post here could come from anywhere. Don't assume that you're directing your post at someone from US, or even people who are homogenous in terms of their political views."
yes i understand that. but i was using US as an example. Not directing it at people.
"It only puts you on weaker ground for your argument. By saying what you said, you're just showing everyone that your membership in something affects your judgement of right and wrong."
Thats just your opinion. But i think it strengthens my point,to not always believe info that is force fed by someone who has power of government authority. In other words have an open mind and be objective of political views presented by ones own country leader.
"I'd like to think of myself as a sensible person, and to do so without a burden on my conscience, I criticize things that I think are wrong, even if it's to my benefit. At least that's the way I think it should be, and I expect others to do the same."
I agree and think Its ok to criticize. But its unusual to emphasize the same point and same thing over and over again,when the point is already well understood.
"But it doesn't seem to be the case for you. You seem to think that people would attack an object by accusing it of anything, without conscient judgement of right or wrong, but just simply because they don't like that object."
But this is not about an object. We are talking about people with feelings. Its like trying to compare apples to oranges. no comparison possible.
"There ARE good things that come from China. I never said whatever China does is wrong or that China is evil in general. I'm specifically talking about this issue of history, and in regards to this issue, I clearly see China wronging other peoples."
Problem is don,that you only seem to reflect on the negative points on china. Over and over again. Why not talk about the good things china is doing.
Even if I did have a grudge against communism (which I kind of do), it's not a taboo to openly bash communism where I live. I'm sure it's allowed on the internet too. I can criticize my own prime minister, and I get away with it fine. There's no reason why I should be afraid of speaking directly about communism and do it in a roundabout way, by talking about history stuff.
Problem again don, your not talking about communism here. Your speaking in terms of slandering a country. Or racially slandering a nation of people. Yes china has a rocky past,but so do many other countries. We do not have to continuely hear about only chinese issues
I have read the post yes. but they are not negative post regarding to japans situation. So far it has been mainly about chinese slander,for which a good moderator should not tolerate.
Then we should start listing all the bad things that 200+ (or whatever number there are) nations are doing, to Korea and to each other. There's no reason why we should talk about Japan at all. This is about China, and China alone. No one said Japan's wrongdoings were acceptable. You're only making a laughing matter out of yourself. Think before you write. Please.
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Post by donilpark on Aug 4, 2005 21:54:51 GMT -5
You know what, you can't punish someone for not talking about something. I don't talk about China's positive side, because that's not the topic here. And not Japan because it's not the topic of this thread. What did I say about anyone? I said something about China, knowing what it is saying about Koguryo history. I didn't make any statement about the political orientation of anyone on the board. If I said anything about someone without knowing anything about that person, please quote me on that. What do you mean by this? What does saying I could be a communist have anything to do with me thinking that communism is an absolute evil? You are making no sense whatsoever. So, I'm not from the US, so what you were saying about Americans hating China doesn't apply to me. In fact, it doesn't apply to most Americans either. You're making a stupid and impolite generalization by saying that American hates China because it's communist. No, it's called discussion technique and logic. You are the one who's spreading falsehood and directing the point of discussion off track by saying that people say what they say because they hate communism. I could do exactly the same thing, by saying that you are defending China only because you love communism. And that would be stupid and wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not talking about communism? You have been insisting that I'm accusing China because I hate China for being a communist. And now, I'm not talking about communism? Be consistent. Please. And, as I clearly stated before, I'm not slandering an entire nation of people. The following is from the third post on the second page of this thread that I posted. As you can clearly tell, I'm not saying anything about the Chinese people. It's the Chinese government that I'm angry about. You can't be punished for not saying something. If I started saying good things about China, then I would have to seat here my entire life and start listing all the good stuff, like Chinese food and so on. And remember I'm not saying everything that's bad about China either. I'm ONLY, JUST, SOLEY talking about its stance on Koguryo history. You upset because I don't talk about all the good things of China when there clearly are? Do you feel wronged by that? Why don't you tell me something that's good about Korea? You have only accused Korea that it is (or I am) spreading false propaganda to promote hatered between nations. YOU tell me something good about Korea. You know what? deiner.proboards48.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=AdmiralYi&thread=1111906261&page=1Follow the link. Scroll down to bottom. Go throught the thread and read my posts. See how I bitched about Japan, and see how acerbic it was. I'm not mentioning Japan in this thread not beacause I approve of what they are doing wrong, but simply because it's not the topic of discussion here. And note that I didn't talk about China on that thread that I gave you link to. I only talk about what's the topic of the thread, not anything and everything. Do you realize you never answered what you think about what China's doing? You've been keep attacking me that I'm biased, as if that the whole fact that China is claiming Koguryo history is something I made up, and then you accused me of trolling and then racism. But you never got to the heart of the matter. You never gave us what you think of China's claim on Koguryo history. Please don't try to deviate from the issue by daringly assuming someone's political or ethnic background. Just stick to the issue, and only say things that you are certain of.
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Post by wiked on Aug 5, 2005 20:44:43 GMT -5
"I don't talk about China's positive side, because that's not the topic here. And not Japan because it's not the topic of this thread." Then why talk about china at all? Its not even the threads topic either? "So, I'm not from the US, so what you were saying about Americans hating China doesn't apply to me. In fact, it doesn't apply to most Americans either." It was used as a example. It definately applies to most americans,because the Current government lies and spoon feeds propaganda to the american public to gain support. "You're making a stupid and impolite generalization" One can say the same with the remarks of your posts as well. "I'm not talking about communism? You have been insisting that I'm accusing China because I hate China for being a communist. And now, I'm not talking about communism?" Really... What negative wording about china will you be presenting to us,if it is no longer about communism? "I'm not slandering an entire nation of people. The following is from the third post on the second page of this thread that I posted. As you can clearly tell, I'm not saying anything about the Chinese people. It's the Chinese government that I'm angry about." In a way you are though. Because the country represents the people. The government indirectly speaks for the people of the country but does not nessessary folllow it. If you hate the chinese Government so much,wouldn't it be best to keep these kind of rants on a personal blog instead of posting them here? " I'm not saying everything that's bad about China either. I'm ONLY, JUST, SOLEY talking about its stance on Koguryo history. You upset because I don't talk about all the good things of China when there clearly are? Do you feel wronged by that?" Did you ever consider that many people would not like to continuely here about a contriversial past? Example is germany,they know their country was once a nazi ocupation. Yet people from other countries still talk openly about it/directly to them. Yes don i think it would be best to talk about some beneficial aspects of a country instead of focusing purely on the negative ones. "Why don't you tell me something that's good about Korea? You have only accused Korea that it is (or I am) spreading false propaganda to promote hatered between nations. YOU tell me something good about Korea." Never said anything about Korea. But i can come up with 3 good things comming from korea. 1 they have a strong work ethics. especialy when it comes to cleaning things. 2 make and have interesting programing. 3 learns to keep friendly bilateral trade even despite conflicts with other countries. You know what? deiner.proboards48.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=AdmiralYi&thread=1111906261&page=1Follow the link. Scroll down to bottom. Go throught the thread and read my posts. See how I bitched about Japan, and see how acerbic it was. I'm not mentioning Japan in this thread not beacause I approve of what they are doing wrong, but simply because it's not the topic of discussion here. Yes i see that post. Good points indeed. But i also see it was edited once,perceivable to conclude to ones on self interest. But still good posting.
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