Who plays the Kisaeng lady?

[Guest]

Trespasser said:

Now do you see why Miss Jeon would have trouble landing leading roles.

Since most viewers are women anyway, the beauty of lead actress does not matter as much as the "prettiness" of male leads.

Hmm. Well it is undeniable to me that you have shown some very adorable looking girls here. But as you have just stated here, even if women viewers think that Miss Jeon is not as "cute" as these younger ladies, why should her look matter much to the women viewers since they are more interested in the "prettiness" of the male leads anyway? Don't Asian women want other women who are like them in age to portray them out of the general truism that younger people can't understand the experience of older people? And don't young, professional Asian women not like the idea of being replaced by even younger inexperienced women?

This vicious cycle phenomenon you have described is so contrary to my experience, having lived most of my life here in the states. I mean even in this youth-obsessed culture, there would be great resistence against a determined and coordinated effort by the American entertainment industries to cast teens in the roles of twenty-somethings. I mean, I would imagine that the women of America would slap down any such effort very forcefully with great violence. ;D

[Guest]

Guest said:

This vicious cycle phenomenon you have described is so contrary to my experience

Haha, a lady friend has just told me that I am way off. She says that this phenomenon occurs in American entertainment industries frequently. Since she is more expert than I am in the female American experience, I will yield to her judgement.

Nevertheless, I want to mention that in Asian markets, since women audiences drive the direction of the tv industries, it seems to me that this phenomenon has to occur at least with the silent consent of the women of Asia, if not with full agreement. But it's hard for me to believe that the vast majority of young Asian women think that this is the way it should be.

[TheBo]

Guest said:

thebo said:

Okay, the only real difference I see between those girls (some of whom I recognize) and Ms Jeon is that she has more "asian" eyes. Maybe this lends credence to that question of whether plastic surgery for western looks is out of control in Korea.

Bo

What do you mean by "western look?" All the girls whose image has been posted here look Korean to me. Haha. I mean my parents have been telling me for years that many starlets get their eyes done. But I can't believe that most of them do (well at least I hope they do not). After all, nobody blinks when they see a Korean guy with "large" eyes. This is because many Korean guys have large eyes. I mean I'm a Korean guy who has never had any plastic surgery done, and yet I have large eyes--I look very normal and natural even though you can see much of my iris. The same is true for our Admiral . . . Mr. Myung Min.

[ photo ]

Okay, let me clarify. I'm not saying I think there is a correct way to look if you are Korean. I am saying that I have heard that "most if not all" starlets in Korea get their eyes "done" to look more "Western"--rounder. I don't want to be mistaken for some idiot who believes that everyone who lives in China or Japan or Korea (see where I'm going here) has deep eye folds and yellow skin and stick straight hair, or whatever other stereotypical beliefs Westerners may have. However, I have heard this rumor, and I wondered if that meant that many of those actors had indeed gotten such surgery, because obviously acting ability cannot depend on what you look like, especially such a minor detail as eye shape.

Perhaps this rumor got started because casting directors actively looked for "round-eyed" or "big-eyed" performers, thinking they were more attractive, so more "round-eyed" people are in the shows, ergo, everyone believes they must have gotten surgery to be cast.

And, I'm also saying, I think Ms Jeon is no less attractive (in both pictures) than the other girls/women who were posted, she just seems to have more "asian-looking" (not round) eyes. Therefore, perhaps casting directors, so used to looking for round eyes, cannot see her value.

Bo

[TheBo]

Guest said:

Guest said:

This vicious cycle phenomenon you have described is so contrary to my experience

Haha, a lady friend has just told me that I am way off. She says that this phenomenon occurs in American entertainment industries frequently. Since she is more expert than I am in the female American experience, I will yield to her judgement.

Nevertheless, I want to mention that in Asian markets, since women audiences drive the direction of the tv industries, it seems to me that this phenomenon has to occur at least with the silent consent of the women of Asia, if not with full agreement. But it's hard for me to believe that the vast majority of young Asian women think that this is the way it should be.

Hah. I'm glad your lady friend has set you straight, or I'd have to. I'm sure you're well aware of the pitiful, starved American actress with her unlikely bosom, perpetually "young" (frozen) face and corded neck. And they range in age from 30 to 70, it isn't just elderly actresses who have to "keep up"--everyone has to "keep up." I, too, would hope that Asian women would have better self-esteem, but young women are young women the world over, and they mostly want to fit in and be popular and will do anything to accomplish it. Unfortunately, when confronted with an object lesson in surgery gone terribly wrong, the average young woman's reaction is not horror, but an ardent desire to imitate, at any cost.

Bo

[ginnycat5]

Most of those girls appear to be 15 to18 years old. They are younger sisters. I haven't seen them act, but they don't appear mature enough to carry dramas about grownups (adult drama sounds ....tasteless).
I guess tastes have changed here, too. There's an enjoyable/great film from 1938 called Holiday with Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn. Grant's fiancee has such a mature-looking face that it took me a while, the whole film actually, to get used to her as his future mate.

[Trespasser]

But as you have just stated here, even if women viewers think that Miss Jeon is not as "cute" as these younger ladies, why should her look matter much to the women viewers since they are more interested in the "prettiness" of the male leads anyway?

In Korean entertainment industry, the casting for roles are controlled by a few big and powerful agencies, who represent a dozen top stars and hundreds of "unknowns" waiting for their chances. These agencies secure roles for their "unknowns" via package casting; say if the producer of certain show wants to cast Actor A, a top star, then they must also cast lesser-known Actor B and Actress C as a package. Obivously, the agencies tend to allocate roles to those "aspiring" actors/actresses with the most marketable potentials, good looks in other word. Even though female audiences largely do not care about who the female lead is, it does matter for producers and agencies because

1. Producers believe matching a pretty male lead with a not-pretty female lead destroys the overall harmony of the show. Of course, this was proven not to be the case with "My Name is Kim Sam Soon", but they don't want to take any unnecessary risk.

2. There is a massive oversupply of actresses in the market, so why choose an older actress when you could have a "highest quality" teen actress for same money?

3. Agency pushes teen and early 20s actresses because actresses do more commercial work than men. It is easier to pitch a younger actress to advertisers than an older actress.

Don't Asian women want other women who are like them in age to portray them out of the general truism that younger people can't understand the experience of older people? And don't young, professional Asian women not like the idea of being replaced by even younger inexperienced women?

They don't seem to object from the observed ratings.

[Guest]

Guest said:

thebo said:

. . . being a poet myself . . .

. . . Someone posted the rules of Sijo here awhile ago (in tangents), but I have not yet tried my hand at it . . .

I'll look around for Ms Hwang's work. Thank you so much.

Bo

Moderator, regardless of whether you ever attempt a shijo, you have a standing offer to share any of your lyrics within this thread. I deem them within the scope of this conversation. ;D

Haha. I suppose, from your reluctance to respond to this offer, you are hesitant to share your poems with us. That's cool. ;D

BTW, I should have mentioned above a 1997 book that was published in America called, "Songs of the Kisaeng," which is a book of Kisaeng poetry.

Here's a link to a lukewarm review of the book that happens to have three examples of Kisaeng shijo:

www.gotterdammerung.org/books/reviews/s/songs-of-the-kisaeng.html

And of course, I would be remiss not to mention that Yi Soon Shin's famous Shijo is recited by Kim Myung Min on this show.

I forget exactly which episode it was on, it was at the end of one of these episodes 83~85--the one in which Yi Soon Shin did that thing that got him in big trouble.

**Note**you may consider what I have to say next a spoiler, though I wouldn't exactly call it that. I am just going to print Yi Soon Shin's shijo here that was translated by whoever did the subbing. ;D









In this scene, an appropriately sparce arrangement of the main musical theme, the song of the sword, swells as Yi Soon Shin walks onto a watchtower in a full moon night to watch over the sea. And at this moment, in voice over, Yi Soon Shin recites the shijo he composed during the war:

A moonlit night on Hansan Isle,
I sit alone in the watchtower.
With a great sword worn by my side,
I fall deep in thought with cares.

A melody of a flute from a distance
Rends my heart . . .


This poem, incidentally, is inscribed on a monument in Ansan-Si that marks the 400th anniversary of his death.

Yi Soon Shin is a source of tourist revenue for this city where the Admiral's tomb is located.

Here is a link to the Yi Soon Shin section of Ansan's tourism website:
www.asan.go.kr/eng/tour/sub_04_01_04.asp

And this is a tourist's map of Ansan you can find in the above site:

[Guest]

ginnycat5 said:

I guess tastes have changed here, too. There's an enjoyable/great film from 1938 called Holiday with Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn. Grant's fiancee has such a mature-looking face that it took me a while, the whole film actually, to get used to her as his future mate.

Haha. It says in IMDB that Doris Nolan, who plays the fiancee, was only 22 when the film came out. Katherine Hepburn, who plays her younger sister, was 31, only 3 years younger than Cary Grant. Wow. I haven't seen this movie, so I shouldn't tease. But Nolan must have been quite the early bloomer. Hahaha. ;D

[Guest]

ginnycat5 said:

Most of those girls appear to be 15 to18 years old. They are younger sisters. I haven't seen them act, but they don't appear mature enough to carry dramas about grownups (adult drama sounds ....tasteless).
I guess tastes have changed here, too. There's an enjoyable/great film from 1938 called Holiday with Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn. Grant's fiancee has such a mature-looking face that it took me a while, the whole film actually, to get used to her as his future mate.

Hmm. So does this mean that you would prefer younger actresses to play more mature roles? Or no?

[Guest]

Trespasser said:

3. Agency pushes teen and early 20s actresses because actresses do more commercial work than men. It is easier to pitch a younger actress to advertisers than an older actress.

. . . They don't seem to object from the observed ratings. . .

Oh wow. This third item really ties up all the stuff you have been saying. This is one great financial incentive even I can understand, especially since Asian women are behaving like accomplices. You are making the Korean tv studios seem as if they are running like the old Hollywood studio system.

[Guest]

Trespasser said:

1. Producers believe matching a pretty male lead with a not-pretty female lead destroys the overall harmony of the show. Of course, this was proven not to be the case with "My Name is Kim Sam Soon", but they don't want to take any unnecessary risk.

. . . They don't seem to object from the observed ratings.

First of all, I would like to say that Kim Sun Ah, who plays Kim Sam Soon, is adorably cute. Plus, she does not seem fat to me at all.

Haha. But I've had this conversation with many guys and girls and my conclusion from those talks is that girls and guys simply have very different notions of what a pretty girl is supposed to look like.

At any rate, perhaps "My Name is Sam Soon" may inspire better roles for young women who are "past their prime."

[Guest]

thebo said:

Hah. I'm glad your lady friend has set you straight, or I'd have to. I'm sure you're well aware of the pitiful, starved American actress with her unlikely bosom, perpetually "young" (frozen) face and corded neck. And they range in age from 30 to 70, it isn't just elderly actresses who have to "keep up"--everyone has to "keep up." I, too, would hope that Asian women would have better self-esteem, but young women are young women the world over, and they mostly want to fit in and be popular and will do anything to accomplish it. Unfortunately, when confronted with an object lesson in surgery gone terribly wrong, the average young woman's reaction is not horror, but an ardent desire to imitate, at any cost.

Bo

;D Haha. Like I said, I am heeding your warning, Bo: I am protecting my head and shoulders from the slings and arrows of others of this board, including yours.

But wow, Bo. After reading this post, I think I heard you sigh.

[Guest]

thebo said:

Okay, let me clarify. I'm not saying I think there is a correct way to look if you are Korean. I am saying that I have heard that "most if not all" starlets in Korea get their eyes "done" to look more "Western"--rounder. I don't want to be mistaken for some idiot who believes that everyone who lives in China or Japan or Korea (see where I'm going here) has deep eye folds and yellow skin and stick straight hair, or whatever other stereotypical beliefs Westerners may have. However, I have heard this rumor, and I wondered if that meant that many of those actors had indeed gotten such surgery, because obviously acting ability cannot depend on what you look like, especially such a minor detail as eye shape.

Perhaps this rumor got started because casting directors actively looked for "round-eyed" or "big-eyed" performers, thinking they were more attractive, so more "round-eyed" people are in the shows, ergo, everyone believes they must have gotten surgery to be cast.

And, I'm also saying, I think Ms Jeon is no less attractive (in both pictures) than the other girls/women who were posted, she just seems to have more "asian-looking" (not round) eyes. Therefore, perhaps casting directors, so used to looking for round eyes, cannot see her value.

Bo

Yeah, I know about this rumor. My parents also insist that all the starlets get things done. I should have been much more clear with the intent of my post. I just wanted to know 1) if you really did know about what goes on when a studio gets a hold of one of these girls and 2) if you knew why this rumor is ubiquitous. Because I am curious about this. ;D

[Trespasser]

This is one great financial incentive even I can understand, especially since Asian women are behaving like accomplices.

Well, women have only themselves to blame.

A case in example; How many Japanese showed up at the airport during the "Sad Sonata" promotion visit.

Kwon Sang Woo(male lead) : 3,500
Kim Hee Sun(female lead) : 200

Clearly women don't care about the female lead in the show at all, be it some 17-year old playing a docter or a 30-year old overweight actress, they only care about the male lead..

[ginnycat5]

Trespasser said:

This is one great financial incentive even I can understand, especially since Asian women are behaving like accomplices.

Well, women have only themselves to blame.

A case in example; How many Japanese showed up at the airport during the "Sad Sonata" promotion visit.

Kwon Sang Woo(male lead) : 3,500
Kim Hee Sun(female lead) : 200

Clearly women don't care about the female lead in the show at all, be it some 17-year old playing a docter or a 30-year old overweight actress, they only care about the male lead..

Do you mean that studios are trying to please the male audience since the females don't care about female casting choices? I saw a Korean news clip of Yon-sama's visit to Japan- the audience was largely women, and a fair percentage of older women at that. Tho Lee Young-ae had lots of women at her appearance. Could be it depends on the time of day and the venue? Who has the time to show up?