SPOILERS! San-Chun Battle Episode!

[TheBo]

Am I the only one who thinks the guy who plays Kurujima Michiyuki (he's the one who made Dodo his "assistant" right?) looks just like Ron Howard's brother, Clint, when he was a child? Every time I see him, I think of that Star Trek episode ("The Corbomite Maneuver"--yeah, I looked it up) where he played "Balok", an adult alien who had the size and appearance of a child. (You know, the one with the huge spaceship and a frightening alien who turns out to be a puppet...oh, well...)

Bo

[Eowyn]

lol Bo, yeah around the teeth/mouth/lower face area (but I'm thinking of Ron Howard's brother, like, from say the Apollo 13 movie).

[TheBo]

Well, Eowyn, I think they put some prosthetics on Clinty-boy to make him look "old" as Balok, so maybe that's why I think of that particular role. A peculiar-looking fellow, in any case...hummmm...

Bo

[pakyownage4eva]

agingwarrior said:

It would make a lot more sense and be more effective if the spikes on the turtle ship were size of nails and more plentiful then the widely spaced vampire killers they use on the TV show. It looks more like they are giving the Japanese handholds to steady themselves.

that 's what I fear too, but I guess the director's didn't want to spend too much time on that .

Having several humungous spikes would work well though, since the Japanese have to board by jumping straight in to them



and about Kim Wan beheading the general. ha! that's hard to imagine. It's a little easier to believe that someone calm and composed like Kwon Jun would kill Gurujima.


I want to know why the Japanese just didn't destroy the Cholla base? that's the only chance they had...obviously, Yi Soon Shin owned at sea ^^

Also, how many Japanese did Yi Soon Shin kill in total?

He's killed almost ten thousand so far

[TheBo]

pakyownage4eva said:

...and about Kim Wan beheading the general. ha! that's hard to imagine. It's a little easier to believe that someone calm and composed like Kwon Jun would kill Gurujima....

But P4E, I think you're just thinking about Kim Wan as he is portrayed in the drama. I seem to recall that in earlier posts about the historical Kim Wan, he was said to be a strong, thoughtful warrior whose symbol was the hawk, who hunts with ease and efficiency. (That last part is probably just my interpretation.) He sounded much less buffoonish in that description.

Bo

[pakyownage4eva]

Yes, I remember reading that Kim Wan was actually a brave guy and probably not as goofy. The drama makes it harder to believe this is true.

and omg, I just watched the episode in which the Japanese have finally smartened up and are going to attack Cholla!!

Obviously, Yi Soon Shin's going to win but I'm scared anyway

[Choko]

Florel, I tried to translate the parts of my book in English but it is too hard for me to translate. So, I'm going to write in Korean. I hope you can translate this information for the members of this board instead of me.

『The Two Faces of Yi Sun-shin (이순신의 두얼굴)』 pp. 146~148
If you want to know about the book information, click here.

가메이 고레노리는 조선 수군이 쏟아내는 엄청난 화력에 혼비백산했다. 당포해전은 가메이 고레노리가 애지중지하던 금부채를 함선에 남겨두고 황급히 도망갈 정도로 치열했다. 그 금부채는 도요토미 히데요시가 그에게 선사한 것이었다. (중략)

당포해전은 적장 구루시마 미치유키에게도 잔인했다. 그는 당포해전에서 이순신 함대에 맞서 싸우다 죽음을 맞았다. 비록 적장이었지만 그의 죽음은 장엄했다. 이순신의 보고서에는 "중위장 권준이 돌진하여 왜장이라는 놈을 쏘아 맞히자, 쿵하는 소리를 내며 떨어지므로 사도 첨사 김완과 군관 흥양 보인 진무성이 그 왜장의 머리를 칼로 베어버렸습니다"라고 기록되어 있다. 또 당포해전에서 구출된 억대라는 여종이 "그날 접전할 때 (아군이) 왜장이 앉아 있는 곳에 화살과 철환을 퍼부어 이마를 맞은 왜장은 안색이 처음엔 태연했는데, 곧 화살이 가슴의 한복판을 관통하자 제정신을 못 차리고 떨어졌습니다"라고 진술한 것도 보고서에 적혀있다.

구루시마 미치유키는 조선군의 화살을 무수히 맞고 죽음을 맞았다. 그 사실은 이순신의 보고서에 실린 전투 기록과 억대의 진술이 일치하므로 신뢰할 수 있다. 그런데 그의 죽음에 대해 일본쪽 사료인 『고려전선기』에는 "겨우 산으로 올라가 자결하였다"고 기록되어 있어 그 진실성에 의혹을 보낼 수밖에 없다. 조선군에게 머리가 잘렸다고 기술하기에는 자존심이 상했을 것이다. 구루시마 집안은 두 명의 형제가 '7년 전쟁'에 참여했다. 구루시마라는 이름은 도요토미가 조선 침공군 편성을 할 때 지휘관으로 임명할 정도로 유명세가 있었다. 하지만 그 누가 알았겠는가. 구루시마 집안이 이순신에게 풍비박산당할 줄이야. (중략)

구루시마 집안의 형(미치유키)은 당포해전에서 이마와 가슴에 수많은 화살을 맞고 머리가 잘렸고, 동생(미치후사)은 명량해전에서 선봉장을 맡았다가 온몸이 토막나고 머리가 잘리는 수난을 당했다. 두 형제가 모두 이순신이라는 조선 장군과의 전투에서 사망했다.

.................................................................

그리고 KBS가 "충무공 탄신일"에 방송했던 특집 다큐멘터리에서, 구루시마 후손과의 인터뷰가 있었는데, 그들은 미치후사가 명량해전에서 죽은 게 아니라 폭풍우를 만나 죽은 것으로 지금까지 알고 있었다고 합니다. 사기가 떨어질까 두려워했던 일본 조정에서 거짓말을 했던 거지요.

florel said:

could you verify this information ? From what I read on web, Kurushima Michiyuki is the childhood name of Tokui Michitoshi. Is it true ?

구루시마 무라카미 수군의 편성도를 살펴보면
masanari.gozaru.jp/kurushima.html

미치후사의 둘째형으로 도쿠이 미치토시(得居通年 1557(?)~1593 or 1597)가 있는데, 다른 이름을 미치유키라고 한다고 되어 있습니다. 그런데 일본 웹사이트마다 생몰 연대가 다르군요. 언제 태어났는지 불확실하다는 사이트도 있고 1557년에 태어났다는 사이트도 있고, 죽은 해도 1593년(사천)에 죽었다고도 하고 1597년(명량)에서 죽었다고 하고... 즉, 자세한 사료가 부족하여 의견이 분분한 인물인 셈입니다.

[florel]

Thank you, Choko, for typing that long text.

I tried to translate it faithfully respecting the original text's expression for those who don't read Korean. But I have to apologize for my crude translation. As all of you know, my English speaking is not fine. I've visited anglophone countries only during one month for USA and one week for UK as a tourist.



**************************************************************

¡ºThe Two Faces of Yi Sun-shin (À̼ø½ÅÀÇ µÎ¾ó±¼)¡» pp. 146~148

Kamei Korenori was terrified out of his senses at the devastating bombardments of Chosun Navy. The Sea Battle of Dangpo was so ferocious that Kamei had to hurry to take flight even dropping his precious golden fan behind on his ship. The golden fan was a gift from Toyotomi Hideyoshi. ...

The Sea Battle of Dangpo was also cruel to Kurushima Michiyuki. He died in Dangpo battle when he fought against YSS's fleet. Even though he was a commander of the enemy, his death was solemn. YSS wrote in his Memorial to Court that "Kwon Jun rushed forward and shot the Japanese commander. When he fell plump, Kim Wan and Lt. Jin Mu-Sung beheaded him by their swords." Also in his memorial, YSS wrote the statement of Ok-Dae, a maiden slave rescued in this battle : "On that day of the battle, our navy poured arrows and iron bullets on the Japanese flagship. The Japanese commander was calm first when he was hit on his forehead but, at once, he lost his consciousness and fell down when a arrow pierced on the middle of his breast."

Kurushima Michiyuki died after being hit by numberless arrows of Chosun Navy. We can consider it as a trustful fact because YSS's battle record coincides with Ok-dae's statement.

By the way, about his death, a Japanese source entitled Records of Koryo War (°í·ÁÀü¼±±â) wrote that "he barely escaped and climbed a mountain where he committed suicide". But we cannot help doubting its veracity. It would have hurt (the Kurushima clan's) pride if they had written that he was decapitated by Chosun soldiers. Two brothers of the Kurushima clan participated in the 'Seven Years War'. The name of the Kurushima was so famous that Toyotomi appointed a Kurushima as a commander when he organized military contingents for the Chosun expedition. But who would have known that Kurushima family would be broken by Yi Soon-Shin ? ...

The elder brother of the Kurushima (Michiyuki) was beheaded in Dangpo battle after being hit by innumerable arrows on his forehead and on his breast and the younger brother (Michihusa) underwent his passion (sic) of being beheaded and dismembered when he fought in the forefront at Myungryang. Both of two brothers were killed in the battles against a Chosunese Commander named Yi Soon-Shin.

[pakyownage4eva]

pays to be korean .


So Gurujima died from other soldiers' numerous arrows...not Kwon Jun's....who am I to believe -_-.

[florel]

This is my comment, not offence, on the author of "Two faces of Yi Soon-Shin".
It's just what I felt about this book when I read an excerpt.


- It was amusing to read an excerpt of this book. I knew neither the author nor the book. First I was astonished because of the author's style. He is using descriptive narration, fitting to a novel genre, rather than logical demonstration. For example, "Kamei Korenori was terrified out of his senses...". Very funny. Normally professional historians don't write in this manner.
It was understandable only when I came to know the profile of the writer. He is an amateur author who published a book for the public.

- Therefore the writer gives only descriptive narrations (of which he is considering as historical facts) but he doesn't deploy logical demonstrations based on cross-critics of various primary sources. (If he wrote as professional historians, he would have had difficulty to sell his book. )
Of course, the writer quote a primary source, Admiral YSS's Memorial. But the quotation is arbitrary. I read the whole memorial of YSS on Dangpo battle. But there is no mention about the name of the dead Samurai neither by YSS nor by Ok-dae. The author doesn't explain how he could identify the dead Samurai with Kurushima. (It's the same about the reason for which Kamei was alive.)

I'm wondering if he was based on another recent work presenting arguments that Kamei didn't die and Kurushima was killed in Dangpo battle. From what he wrote, I cannot perceive it.


- What I agree with him is the argument that Japanese private sources made by a clan for their own glory are doubtful (by the same reason we have to be cautious of Korean private sources) and that Kurushima in real history would be killed rather kill himself. But where and when ? Always discussible.

[florel]

pakyownage4eva said:

pays to be korean .


So Gurujima died from other soldiers' numerous arrows...not Kwon Jun's....who am I to believe -_-.

I think Kwon Jun finished Kurushima (or Kamei) who was wounded by soldiers' arrows and gun bullets.

[florel]

And this is what Choko wrote on the bottom of her posting :

KBS interviewed a descendant of Kurushima in a special documentary program aired on YSS's Birthday. They haven't known that Michihusa was killed in the Sea Battle of Myungryang. They believed that he died in a storm. They (Japanese navy commanders) lied to the Japanese court because they feared the demoralization of their men.


==> This is interesting, Choko. I didn't know it. This information let me think that Kurushima the elder also would be killed in a battle. I came to distrust Japanese historical records when I found the fact that Japanese history books, studied by a Korean historian, were offering three different dates (and four dates if we include Korean argument) about the death year of Keyamura Rokusuke who was supposed to be killed by Korean woman Non-Gae.

(Cf. That Korean scholar of Non-Gae was arguing that Keyamura wouldn't have died in the 2nd battle of Chinju.)


********************************************************

Choko also posted about Murakami Navy :

masanari.gozaru.jp/kurushima.html

Tokui Michitoshi (1557?-1593 or 1597) is the second elder brother of Michihusa. He (Michitoshi) was called as Michiyuki. But his birth and death dates are different in each Japanese web site. One says his birth year is uncertain and the other says in 1557. It's the same for his death year 1593 or 1597. That is to say, there are divergent arguments on this personage because detailed sources are lacking.


==> Thanks, Choko, for the confirmation. I have difficulty to get necessary informations about the Japanese because I cannot read Japanese language.

It's strange. The sea battle of Sacheon was held in 1592 and even his clan's records confirms that Tokui (aka Kurushima) died in that year. How could he die in 1593 or in 1597 ? Hmm...Hmmm...


P.-S. The free translation service is exceptional.

[florel]

Personally, I can understand why the dramatists kill Kurushima in the battle of Dangpo while there are several existing arguments on his death. I thought they couldn't depict every battles so they had to "condense" historical events.

In addition, the character of Kurushima was fabulous ! I couldn't help laughing when he spoke. I have never seen a man (or a woman) who has a wide range of synonym vocabularies like him. lol He was serious but what he said was unintentionally funny !
Kudos to the actor !

[pakyownage4eva]

lol...his voice is pretty funny.

I'd like to know who the actor is. ::laziness takes over::

[TheBo]

florel, aren't you on the vacancies? (LOL) You work so much.

Bo