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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 8, 2007 21:51:46 GMT -5
Don't worry -- this will be short, but i promised to do it a few weeks back.
If Bu Kiwon was listened to way back when YGSM wanted to invade Tang....Goguryeo may not have fallen.
Bu Kiwon was right -- they didn't have time for revenge. I don't know if the show covered it at the time, but Shilla was plotting to take over the peninsula.
Meanwhile, Yang Manchun and others let YGSM get away with murder -- literally, in replacing the King. And the infighting to get priorities straight, instead of beefing up defense on the Tang end and more attention to the Bekjae/Shilla front.
Now, later in the series, it's clear how selfish Bu Kiwon is, but for a time, he was addressing the right issue.
Just wanted to throw that out ther ebefore we forget about Bu Kiwon.
Also, i have absolutely no defense fo Sa BuGu
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Post by ajk on Jul 9, 2007 11:33:56 GMT -5
You make a good point, at least as far as the earlier episodes. Some of that stuff got little or no mention in the series (YGSM replacing the king; Shilla danger) but certainly Goguryeo didn't have the resources to carry out the quick counterattack that YGSM wanted. About him being right, I don't know, I'm not so sure that peace negotiations would ever have worked. But he was honestly trying to do what he thought was right to preserve the country. So I agree with you—he was pursuing honorable ends, at least early on. The problem was that the means he used included things like torturing and killing an old woman and arranging for Yang Manchun's assassination, so it was hard to ever have sympathy for his position.
Sa Bugu, maybe he had a lot of repressed anger at his barber!
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Post by mikey on Jul 9, 2007 12:44:22 GMT -5
I’ve been looking forward to this discussion, JP!
I’m fortunate to be also currently watching the SBS series “Yeon Gae-so-mun,” which perhaps gives me a different look at the historical situation. Now, truth be told, “Yeon Gae-so-mun” started out hardly better than a cartoon: it was entertaining, but a little tough to take seriously. Midway though the series, though, everything suddenly changed, with new theme music, mostly new actors, and (maybe?) even new writers, as it has become a pretty good historical drama since the big historical fast-forward.
In “Dae Jo Young,” Yeon really was portrayed as a Tang-obsessed nutcase - and, for all I know, that may well have been accurate. Yeon’s focus on Tang probably stemmed from his view that Shilla was no big threat to Kokuryo. Probably true, but (as we discovered) in a two-front war, with Tang and Shilla fighting together, it would be another matter altogether.
It’s a little surprising, (to me, at least) that in “Dae Jo Young,” Kokuryo was caught so off guard when Shilla took advantage of the situation and joined forces with Tang. So far as I know, Tang and Shilla were close for a long time. Shouldn’t they have seen this coming?
If one is to believe the SBS series “Yeon Gae-so-mun” (and note that, aside from a whole lot of K-drama viewing, I really don’t know squat about Korean history) the previous king was not only an honorable man, but also a onetime war hero who (as crown prince) commanded Kokuryo’s naval forces. But, having seen the suffering of his people from war, he resolved that Kokuryo would never again face war, so long as he sat on the throne. The SBS drama, therefore, portrayed him as a virtuous monarch who willingly endured humiliation from the Tang king, so that the Kokuryo people wouldn’t have to suffer from yet another war.
I should mention that at least one written historical reference I’ve read suggested that the King was actually overthrown by Yeon for being “pro-Tang,” but the SBS drama didn’t show it that way.
In the SBS drama, the Kokuryo governors were fully in support of the king’s pacifist policies, but for entirely different reasons. The governors, traditionally, bore the largest financial burden of war, and peacetime prosperity had brought them considerable wealth - wealth they weren’t exactly anxious to squander on yet another Tang-Kokuryo war. Unlike the king, it seemed that their pacifism was entirely motivated by self-interest, rather than any particular concern for the suffering people.
In light of that, it’s difficult for me not to see Bu Kiwon as composite picture of the very governors I saw in YGSM: people who were anxious to appease a (dangerously aggressive) Tang for self-interest rather than in the greater good of Kokuryo. Thus, even if it's correct that somebody needed to keep the brakes on Yeon Gaesomun, Bu’s passion, I think, didn’t come from any particular devotion towards Kokuryo so much as it came from his own self-interest.
Incidentally, if one believes what happened in “YGSM,” Yang Manchoon was in far-away Ansi fort at the time of Yeon’s coup - intentionally kept in the dark, it seems, as he wasn’t considered trustworthy enough by Yeon and the revolutionaries. Their worries proved to be well-founded, for upon receiving word of the coup, Yang attempted rally forces from the neighboring forts for a march on Pyong-yang - only to discover that the other fort commanders in the region largely sympathized with Yeon’s revolutionaries. I don’t know if this is historically correct, though.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 10, 2007 14:14:32 GMT -5
Thanks Mikey for the insight, especially with the SBS series. (tangent) i hope AZN plans on showing it -- a GREAT commercial during DJY would be to ask the viewers "Do you want an alternate perspective of YGSM? Then watch YGSM, AZN 2008" (/tangent)
So you're saying Bu Kiwon is right, but for the wrong reasons? Also -- regarding Yang Manchun being assigned faraway --- didn't they show that in dae Jo Young? Or did they alter it (having vague memories -- it seems so long ago!)...did they simply change the events of the confrontation --- from the overthrow to YGSM's attemped invasion plans?
In regards to the question -- shouldn't Goguryeo have seen Shilla coming...? Well, if DJY is to be believed (and there's plenty reason not to--- so again, i appreciate the contrast with YGSM the series), YGSM (the character) was obsessed with Tang, and its real threat, that he considered Shilla to be weak & inconsequential...something that perhaps the governors knew better.
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Post by truth on Jul 10, 2007 16:34:12 GMT -5
The reason YGSM wasn't worried about Shilla was because Koguryo had made an alliance with Baekjae. Since Baekjae has been defeating Shilla in every single wars they had attempted, Koguryo was trusting Baekjae completely.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 10, 2007 17:59:11 GMT -5
i missed the episode (bad reception) about whathappened to Bekjae...how did they fall? Was there somethng deep and long-entrenched that insiders could see was wrong, but that outsiders (like YGSM) might not notice?
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jul 10, 2007 19:35:14 GMT -5
i missed the episode (bad reception) about what happened to Bekjae...how did they fall? I don't know if you saw this, but Mimosa and is grandfather provided aid to DJY and his father (I think they gave them a ship, and they also provided Bekjae boys to sail it for them.) When Tang found out, they completely destroyed Bekjae, hung Mimosa's grandfather, and killed the rest of his family. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Tang also attempt to kill all the Bekjae citizens that they could lay their hands on? From what I remember (it does seem so long ago), they succeeded.
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Post by Knov1 on Jul 10, 2007 20:05:09 GMT -5
Nalbal, what you're referring to is displaced Baekjae citizens who started their own town on Tang land. The fall of Baekjae was never shown in DJY. It was only mentioned. Baekjae fell in 660 after it was attacked by Shilla and Tang.
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Post by mikey on Jul 15, 2007 8:51:57 GMT -5
I’m a bit disappointed that this thread hasn’t generated more discussion - but perhaps that’s indicative of the generally unenthusiastic fan response I’ve been seeing to “Dae Jo Young” (at least, in comparison to AOW or IYSS, where the fans went nuts). I couldn’t quite work up the gumption to go back and review all the early episodes, but although I remember Bu loudly opposing Yeon’s plans for a March-On-China, I can’t really remember exactly WHY he was so opposed. If he opposed Yeon’s plans because Shilla was so dangerous that they couldn’t risk moving troops north, then Bu might indeed be considered a legitimate hero. But, I can’t (offhand) remember Bu saying anything that specific. It always seemed like he had a general opposition to Yeon’s war plans - but I don’t recall any further explanation. In the SBS series “Yeon Gae-so-mun,” there’s some real bad blood between Yeon Gaesomun and Yang Manchoon (who, despite his unhappiness with Kokuryo’s pacifist policies, had still been absolutely loyal to the Emperor). I’m not sure of the exact timeframe when the KBS series “Dae Jo Young” begins, but I can only guess that it’s just a year or two after Yeon’s coup - and in DJY, Yang and Yeon seem to be best buddies. I haven’t (yet) gotten to that point I history in YGSM, but from the looks of things, SBS seems to portray the two as having an uncomfortable alliance, for as angry as Yang Manchoon was at Yeon for the military coup, Yang still believed that defending Kokuryo against Tang was a much greater obligation. Ah, that explains a lot. Several times early on during DJY I was wondering “where is Baekjae in all this?” I think it wasn’t until the arrival of Mimosa that they came right out and said that Baekjae had fallen. I sure wish they had covered the fall of Baekjae (which, after all, was a huge historical event) in greater detail - instead of devoting so much effort to that sorry Dae Jo Young-Chulin-Li Kaigu love triangle.
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Post by ajk on Jul 15, 2007 15:46:04 GMT -5
Wow, Mikey, you must really love this stuff if you're watching multiple historical dramas at the same time! I can barely keep up with one. The reason that Bu Kiwon opposed YGSM's counter-invade Tang plan (at least in this series!) was that he felt the country was too drained from fending off Tang's invasion. Exhausted soldiers, no crops planted in the fields, etc. And he was right. I even remember a scene where DJY prostrated himself in front of YGSM's horse and begged him to reconsider, for those very reasons (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So I guess that's more ammo for the defense-of-Bu-Kiwon argument.
Knov 1 is right about the Baekje-town. When the Mimosa character re-entered the series he explained that Tang found out about him aiding DJS and DJY, and killed his grandfather and everybody else in the town--but left him alive. (Utterly preposterous. One of the worst-written moments of the series.) I wish they had dealt a little more with Baekje. Like mikey said, some good historical stuff got short-changed at the expense of sillier stuff.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 15, 2007 17:12:18 GMT -5
Mikey,
DJY starts with YGSM & Comapny defending GoGuryeo from Tang attack....so a time where Goguryeans are united , and respect each other.
Then they skip from between when DJY was born to when DJY was a young man. It was during THAT time, which was NOT shown in episodes, that the coup began....but i forget if at that point Yang Manchun was at the outer border.
With DJY, Yang Manchun & YGSM were good friends that had their relationship strained up until the very end, where at least in DJY, they seemd to privately reconcile, and YGSM was sorry for his obession with Tang. That obsession also seemed to be due to illness as well as others too afraid to challenge his position on invading Tang. Yang Manchun, the series, definitely wished he could have fulfilled the pledge he made with YGSM to destroy Tang.
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Post by Knov1 on Jul 16, 2007 1:41:08 GMT -5
DJY starts with YGSM & Comapny defending GoGuryeo from Tang attack....so a time where Goguryeans are united , and respect each other. Then they skip from between when DJY was born to when DJY was a young man. It was during THAT time, which was NOT shown in episodes, that the coup began....but i forget if at that point Yang Manchun was at the outer border. That's incorrect. YGSM's coup happened before Tang attacked Koguryeo. YMC was at Ansi at the time of the coup.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 16, 2007 6:18:13 GMT -5
i mean the Tang attack where the Tang make the big Sand Hill, and then DJY was born. The Chinese emperor and loses his eye.
The coup was AFTER that, but before the NEXT round of attacks (starring Xue Rengui), was it not?
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Post by Knov1 on Jul 16, 2007 7:51:52 GMT -5
i mean the Tang attack where the Tang make the big Sand Hill, and then DJY was born. The Chinese emperor and loses his eye. The coup was AFTER that, but before the NEXT round of attacks (starring Xue Rengui), was it not? No, YGSM's coup was before all that. YGSM killed the previous king and put King Bojang on the throne. King Bojang was already on throne by the time of Tang's first attack. In fact, some historians believe that because YGSM killed the previous king (who was pro-Tang), Tang chose to attack Koguryeo.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jul 16, 2007 9:05:58 GMT -5
i apologize, Knov1 - you're right (just checked wikipedia)....but i still think the SHOW's timeline is different (as is the history of DJY, as some things are ficitonal and/or timed wrong), and for dramatic purposes, pushed back the revolt, to add drama to the confronttion of Yang Manchun & YGSM
Wikipedia's bio of YGSM is interesting....and sounds like a good drama as well (it says that some sources say that YGSM & Taizong were friends early on!)
Hmmm.....how accurate was Wang Guhn, again? there were a couple of times they diverged from reality, but they also let the audience know that...
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