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Post by FrederickII on Jul 5, 2005 12:59:43 GMT -5
I dont remember his name, but he is a Chosunese Samurai who helped to save Yi Soon Shin.
In my opinion, how can anybody blame him for becoming a traitor? He is a skilled potter only treated like dirt in Chosun. Why wouldn’t he change his allegiance? If I was living back then I may have done the same, though under different circumstances, i wouldn’t ally my self with the man who killed a whole bunch of people in my village.
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Post by Alexa on Jul 5, 2005 13:10:53 GMT -5
I feel bad for him too. I mean he was tortured before he even decided to give in and give his allegiance to the Japanese. So now the man even has a family and kids back in Japan. It has to be very hard on him right now, thinking about his past and who he really is, and thinking about what he has become and his family. It's easy to say that if we would've been in his shoes we would've chosen death, but unless we were ever in a similar situation we would never know what choice we would've made. I mean it's easy to die, shoot me and get it over with, but when you are being tortured, or they are threatning you with killing your family/friends, then it's a different story. I think right now he is conflicted with whether he should help his people or stay loyal to Japan, but we have to remember he has a family back in Japan. Would anybody be willing to risk their family for their country? I couldn't do it, put my family at risk for anybody or anything. If he did decide to help Chosun and YSS, his family would definetely get punished for it.
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Post by kathleen34 on Jul 5, 2005 13:30:12 GMT -5
I agree... his choice to denounce his Chuson heritage just underlines the fact that be it the 16th Century or the 21st Century.... in spite of technology, mankind is still overwhelmed with such life-threatening decisions and how it plays out with everyone. I like this guy a lot and feel so sorry for him.
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Post by FrederickII on Jul 5, 2005 13:47:57 GMT -5
He may be conflicted true, but my point is, who can blame him for joining the japanese in the first place? even if he wasnt tortured....
my point is, why wouldnt he?
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Post by Alexa on Jul 5, 2005 13:51:33 GMT -5
He may be conflicted true, but my point is, who can blame him for joining the japanese in the first place? even if he wasnt tortured.... my point is, why wouldnt he? hmm well thats true, I mean the man was treated like crap, there was no respect for him or the other potters. BUT did he really have to give his allegiance to the Japanese after they killed off everybody in the village? I didn't see this show from the beginning, so I don't remember exactly what happened, but I'm pretty sure they killed off his family right? So how can you join with those that killed the ones that you love? I think he basically caved cause he was being torture and torture can be worst then death, BUT he still joined the murderer of his village. How many people can live with that in their conscience? So do I think it was right? Well though I feel bad for the man I have to say NO. He became a part of Japan, the country that murdered his family and friends. |
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Post by donilpark on Jul 5, 2005 13:55:14 GMT -5
I disagree. No matter what, it's still your country and your people.
No matter how bad your own people treats you, at least you're still a part of it.
You will never be a part of another people, not to mention the enemy of the people you just betrayed.
They may treat you well on the surface, but deep inside, they despise you even more for betraying your people and they never give you the complete trust they would give to their own kinsman.
I mean, isn't that what the Korean civil militia were doing? They were the general populace, the lower class of the society who were mistreated by their rulers, but who nonetheless threw their lives away to protect their people and save the nation.
No matter how bad your own parents are, you can't turn against them. It's kind of like a moral law. Something that's not written down anywhere, but something that should never be transgressed.
It was a mistake, as he would eventually realize little by little as time goes on.
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Post by FrederickII on Jul 5, 2005 15:10:21 GMT -5
The thing is, the Choson government would naturally force anybody who was a skilled artisan to betray their country.
If I had a choice to be a potter in Choson or Japan why wouldnt I chose Japan? Yes the Japanese may not respect you in their hearts, but in Japan respect is a matter of life and death. If you disrespect someone’s home in Japan your life legally is in their hands (of course I am talking about Japan back then).
Lets say you were kid-napped on the open seas while traveling somewhere and you happen to be a potter. Lets say you are taken to Japan, given a wife, home, respect, and all you have to do is make pottery.
It is a simple choice.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 5, 2005 17:27:55 GMT -5
Nah. There are things that are more valuable than life itself.
Like I already pointed out, the Korean civil militia were not afraid to lose their lives for the sake of their nation.
That's the same for anyone who fought for his nation, risking his life. For them, the well being of their nation and people was far more important than their own lives.
If living in this world with the riches and comforts were all that mattered, yeah, why not? You can steal other people's stuff, you can kill your parents to get their wealth before they pass it down to you, and everything.
But I think, morality transcends things like being respected and living well.
And as for the 'being potter in either Chosun and Japan', art is intrinsically rewarding in itself. Usually at least. True spirit of an artisan is finding joy in creating whatever you are creating, and wishing what you make will be useful/beautiful to others, not to find any material reward for what you're doing. Or so I hope.
Anyway, if you ask me, I would choose honour and unity with my kinsmen rather than treachery and wealth.
If you're an artisan and born in Japan where they respected you, lucky you, but if not, I don't think I should be jealous of that.
I'm not saying that when I actually get into such a situation, I will choose honour over life. I may very well waver when the actual moment comes and beg for my life, disregarding honour. But in principle, I believe what I've been saying is what I must do.
This too, you should understand Korea has already sent many artisans and scholars to Japan since the ancient times. If friendly transmission of culture is the issue, no objection. It's just that that potter in the show was actually working against the Koreans, doing even worse things to them in a futile attempt to be accepted and respected as a 'Japanese'. No to that.
And what you're describing is not a choice either. I can say with certainty that none of the potters who were kidnapped wanted that to happen. They were really abducted and were forced to work the pottery, not because they chose to go to Japan of their own accord.
In addition to that, even if it were a matter of choice, I wouldn't want to leave my friends, my family, my parents, my hometown of my childhood memories and my homeland so that I could get a beautiful wife and a great house in a far away foreign land from where I know I will never be able to return.
If you say things like what you said, you're making the sadness and pain that the abducted people must have had to endure appear something trivial, something they chose because of such shallow, superficial reasons as wealth and respect.
I don't think I can even understand a fraction of sadness they must have felt in a foreign land where you were forever a stranger and nowhere to go back home to, where the only thing you could do was being forced to make artwork for the people who killed your family and people, in isolation.
Even now, when I think of that sadness and injustice, tear almost wells up in my eyes.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 5, 2005 19:36:20 GMT -5
BUT did he really have to give his allegiance to the Japanese after they killed off everybody in the village? So how can you join with those that killed the ones that you love?How many people can live with that in their conscience? So do I think it was right? Well though I feel bad for the man I have to say NO. He became a part of Japan, the country that murdered his family and friends. Interesting points made here. This line of reasoning was used for years in the former Czechoslovakia when it went Communist and especially after the invasion by the Russians in '68. If you joined the Communist party after '68 you were seen as a traitor going with the Russian invaders. Families were torn apart by it. As more than one person has told me, "Survival is the best revenge in the long run." As for whether a person can live with themselves by going with the oppressor--booze becomes a great tranquilizer. No one lives with themselves after committing such an act and others who did not capitulate and live to tell the tale have long memories. Czech websites are brimming with the names of collaborators, crooks, and Commies and in spite of the West being silent on this issue, millions have most certainly not forgotten and will not let the younger generation plead ignorance. As for our Korean friend, I believe that he will do the right think when he can do so. |
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Post by Tresspasser on Jul 5, 2005 23:09:46 GMT -5
Kohei is a traitor to Japan, he is the one feeding Yi Soon Shin with all the info and he pays for it with his life.
It was wrong for Kohei to betray Japan, as it was Japan that treated him better with respect.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 6, 2005 0:13:32 GMT -5
You don't really mean that do you?
The Japanese never gave him any respect. True respect is something from your heart. Wakizaka was suspicious of him throughout, and later, he would mock him by saying something like "after I kill you, I'll send your remains to Japan and bury you with a gravestone saying that you were a glourious warrior of Japan who contributed greatly to conquer Korea."
By the way, speaking of betraying and stuff, there were more Japanese who betrayed Japan and naturalized as Koreans than Koreans who betrayed to become Japanese.
We know that this war is an invasion with no real justification. Toyotomi Hideyoshi had a lot of political enemies to begin with, and lots more were against the war. Those people knew that even if they won, there would be no reward for them, since one of Hideyoshi's purpose for sending them to the war was to get rid of them. So they would surrender quickly to Korea and fight against the Japanese.
Yi Soonshin and Korean court also realized Hideyoshi's unstable political position and used this actively to lure many Japanese into betraying Japan. They promised wealth and posts as government officials when they surrendered to Korea. So the surrendered Japanese would receive a certain amount of silver, Korean name, and a position in the court.
Of course, some just surrendered because they liked and admired Korea, like Sayaga/Suzuki Magoichiro (whose Korean name is Kim Chungseon. But his identity in Japan is obscure. So we are not 100% sure what he was called in Japan. In any case, he is the most famous of the Japanese who surrendered to Korea).
The show doesn't depict these 'hangwae' (defected Japanese), but they were very numerous and was of big help to Korea. According to Annals of Chosun Dynasty, they numbered more that 10000 and among them were prominent people like Konishi's own younger brother. They taught how to use rifles, so that 1 year after the war breaks out, Korea starts to produce and use rifles too. (the show dosen't show this either)
Like I pointed out before, they were also more fervant in fighting for Korea.
Surely, in the end, more Koreans became Japanese, but it was mostly because they were abducted.
Most Japanese who became naturalized as Koreans did it voluntarily.
Well, I kind of babbled on... but if anyone's interested...
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Post by Daemado on Jul 7, 2005 1:08:08 GMT -5
Absolutely fascinating. I think you should start a new thread about "hangwae" ... it's certainly a revelation to me.
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Post by Tresspasser on Jul 7, 2005 20:58:09 GMT -5
I do. Kohei's dilemma is similar to one Japanese Americans faced during WWII. Japanese Americans chose to be Americans and a large number of them enlisted and fought bravely in Europe. Had they been ordered to fight Japanese in Pacific, they would have done so without a hesitation. Why? Because America gave them more than Japan ever did(That's why they were in America in the first place), so their royalty belonged to America, not Japan.
The fact of matter is that Japan gave far more to Kohei than Korea ever could. Kohei was nobody in his hometown, and was looked down and abused by local nobles and government officials. But Kohei in Japan had everything; Daimyos, more specifically Wakizaka in this fiction, praised his fine skills and rewarded him with wealth and honors. Kohei had a beatiful wife that he couldn't possibly dreamed of in his old hometown. Hell, Kohei even commanded his own troops. So why would he betray Japan? A conventional sense says he wouldn't, but the script writer had to make him betray Japan because of his ethnicity. That's just a non-sense.
Dogs give their lives to those who were kind to them. People give their lives to those who recognize and trust them.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 7, 2005 21:57:02 GMT -5
Well, but there's the element of Korean culture and sentiment, as well as Korea-Japan relation and their perception toward each other.
Since the ancient times, Japan has been eyeing Korea so that it could expand and get out of the archipelago, and Korea considered Japan as barbarians. Archenemies, if you will.
It's not like a simple matter of working for company A or company B.
One's family and people is something so basic. It's not something you can choose after you're born. (at least for homogenous peoples like Koreans and Japanese. Perhaps, after a few generations, but not in your own lifetime. Once you're born into one, you're pretty much it for your life.)
I know that Japan's family ties and nationalism are somewhat weaker, and I also know that the Japanese sometimes get surprised by Koreans by their strong family ties and nationalism.
If Jangpyeong were to choose whether to serve China or Japan, than maybe he would just go for whoever treats him better.
But his situation was to choose between his mother and someone who raped his mother. (even though the mother was not the best out there)
Just because that rapist paid you well, you shouldn't work with him to rape your own mother.
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Post by TheBo on Jul 8, 2005 10:05:35 GMT -5
Well, the only addition I have to this conversation is I wondered how Kohei could happily serve the man who killed his own father, right in front of his face. True, his father begged that his son be allowed to live because he was the "best potter in Chosun"--you know, honoring his father's last wish--but still. They murdered an old man (what threat could he possibly be?), and brutally, along with everyone else in that village they could lay their hands upon. The only other thought I had was perhaps since Kohei fervently believed that YSS would be able to rescue him at the time of his kidnapping, he became disillusioned and embittered by YSS's failure to do so.
Bo
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