Ming China

[Trespasser]

Ming China, were they an allie and a valuable help to Chosun, or were they a hinderance who connived with the Japanese? The more I watch this show, the more it shows them as the latter.

That's why the show is a fiction. FYI, this show is on air in Chinese sattelite channel and Chinese don't seem to have much problem with Korean portrayal of Ming troops.

As for Ming's true intentions, you must remember that the combined strength of Korean and Ming troops were 1/3rd the level of Japanese. And these Japanese were fabled Samurais, who represented the peak of Japan's military strength prior to industrialization. Therefore, holding them off was difficult enough, much less repelling them. Had it not been Yi Soon Shin's blockade, Japanese would not have had the supply problem and marched straight to Beijing.

Ming did try to hold off Japanese invasion to the fullest of its ability and it cost them dearly, their own empire at the hands of Manchus.

[donilpark]

One does not wage war with infantry alone. Navy was and is an integral part of carrying out a war, and so is any political and diplomatic strategy.
In the end, Japan got driven out, so it simply means it was not strong enough.

Ming tried to stop the Japanese, simply because it didn't want the war to extend into its own territory. To meet that end, it would do anything, even things that would harm Korea seriously, like simply trying to 'hold off' the Japanese like you say, which means the Japanese can still station in Korea and commit all the atrocities they wish. (and as mentioned above, Chinese soldiers joined in on the fun as well)
As long as they could keep the war from spreading into its territory, it wouldn't have given any consideration whatsoever about the well-being of Korea.
I guess, perhaps you can't blame them for it, since that's what international relations is like, but at least it shows that Ming was not Chosun's friend at all.

Oh, by the way, the thing about samurais is largely an illusion.
After all, did samurais ever have any chance to fight against foreign forces except during this very war?
All they did was fighting among themselves, and it simply doesn't make sense to compare the strength of this group (samurais) and some others, let alone making a quantitative judgement like 1/3.
When Koryo attacked Japan with Yuen, we clearly saw their strength.
Really, it is a fable shaped through movies, cartoons and animes.

[svetlana]

then Korea might be occupying today's Chinese territory and in the history books you would have seen Qing as one of Korean ancient dynasties

wow. to think that shaved foreheads and pigtails could have become fashionable on the peninsula

[Skinz Unlogged]

donilpark said:

Oh, by the way, the thing about samurais is largely an illusion.
After all, did samurais ever have any chance to fight against foreign forces except during this very war?
All they did was fighting among themselves, and it simply doesn't make sense to compare the strength of this group (samurais) and some others, let alone making a quantitative judgement like 1/3.
When Koryo attacked Japan with Yuen, we clearly saw their strength.
Really, it is a fable shaped through movies, cartoons and animes.

Amen. I laugh everytime they show a samurai make one simple mistake and a knife is thrown at them to perform seppuku. Not all samurais lived by the code. Sure the code was preached but few actually acted it out.

[Tresspasser]

In the end, Japan got driven out, so it simply means it was not strong enough.

Napoleon and Hitler lost in Russia not because French and Nazi armies wasn't strong enough, but because of logistic problems and weather. Hideyoshi suffered the exact same problem. No one could oppose his Samurai army of 200K in battle, yet his army could not march foward because they could not be supplied by the sea.

Hideyoshi's reasoning that his army could conquer China was real; the only reason his plan failed was Yi Soon Shin's blockade.

To meet that end, it would do anything, even things that would harm Korea seriously, like simply trying to 'hold off' the Japanese like you say, which means the Japanese can still station in Korea and commit all the atrocities they wish.

You can clearly see the effect of Ming dispatching its Northern front troops to Korea; when Manchus invaded Ming a few years later, Manchus were unopposed and overran the whole China because the Northern troop that held down Manchus were decimated by Japanese. So Ming did give everything it got in the Northern front to stop Japanese, and it cost them dearly.

As long as they could keep the war from spreading into its territory, it wouldn't have given any consideration whatsoever about the well-being of Korea.

You think Ming had the power to drive out the Japanese; they didn't. The best they could do with their 60K troops were to hold Japanese off.

Oh, by the way, the thing about samurais is largely an illusion.

It is not. Name one battle where either Korean or Ming troops faced the Japanese troop face to face on an even field and won. Wakizaka Yasuharu's battle record of wiping out 50K Korean troops with just 1500 men is a testimony of the strength of Japanese troops in hand to hand combat. It was impossible for Ming or Korean troops to drive out Japanese troops by means of force.

[ABC]

Regarding that 50K Korean troops, I woudn't call them "troops", more like organized mobs would probably be more accurate. By that time of the battle, most of the professional Korean ground troops were decimated early in the war. Choson Korea was in a panick to raise "troops" quickly to slow the advancing Japanese. Most of that 50K troops were poorly lead, untrained, unequipped mobs, many fighting with little more than sticks and bamboo spears.

[Trespasser]

Regarding that 50K Korean troops, I woudn't call them "troops", more like organized mobs would probably be more accurate. By that time of the battle, most of the professional Korean ground troops were decimated early in the war. Choson Korea was in a panick to raise "troops" quickly to slow the advancing Japanese. Most of that 50K troops were poorly lead, untrained, unequipped mobs, many fighting with little more than sticks and bamboo spears.

It doesn't matter. The simple truth is that neither Koreans nor Chinese had the power to stop Japanese on land. The Korean Navy could not stop Japanese fleet either but it was the sheer brilliance of Yi Soon Shin's strategy that made the impossible happen. Which was the biggest misfortune of Hideyoshi, the one he couldn't possibly have foreseen.

So the whole "What the darn Mings are doing in Korea" arguement is moot; Ming couldn't stop Japanese, they best it could do was to hold them off, and Ming did take a heavy loss themselves in doing so, enough to lose the whole empire a few years later.

[donilpark]

Napoleon and Hitler lost in Russia not because French and Nazi armies wasn't strong enough, but because of logistic problems and weather. Hideyoshi suffered the exact same problem. No one could oppose his Samurai army of 200K in battle, yet his army could not march foward because they could not be supplied by the sea.

Hideyoshi's reasoning that his army could conquer China was real; the only reason his plan failed was Yi Soon Shin's blockade.

So you wanna start blaming the weather?
Weather and logistics are a part of war too.
Look at Yi Soonshin, and look at Uh Youngdam. Look how they need to know the weather and currents before they go into any battle.
Look how Yi Soonshin had to cultivate his own farms to feed the soldiers.
A true strategist would know not to start a war when it's unfavourable for them, and get their foot out quickly if weather turns bad during the war.

You can clearly see the effect of Ming dispatching its Northern front troops to Korea; when Manchus invaded Ming a few years later, Manchus were unopposed and overran the whole China because the Northern troop that held down Manchus were decimated by Japanese. So Ming did give everything it got in the Northern front to stop Japanese, and it cost them dearly.

I'm not saying China didn't want to stop the Japanese. Nor am I saying they suffered no losses.
They did indeed, but that's only so long as Japanese don't set foot in their territory. If that sole condition would be met, they would have even attacked Korea together with Japan.

You think Ming had the power to drive out the Japanese; they didn't. The best they could do with their 60K troops were to hold Japanese off.

I'm not saying they did, but even if they did, it's clear they wouldn't have wanted to waste their energy and lives so that they can protect Korea. Again, all that matters is minimizaing Ming's own losses, even if it's at the tremedous expense paid by Korea. Both in actual battles and for the possible contingency of the war spreading into its territory.

It is not. Name one battle where either Korean or Ming troops faced the Japanese troop face to face on an even field and won. Wakizaka Yasuharu's battle record of wiping out 50K Korean troops with just 1500 men is a testimony of the strength of Japanese troops in hand to hand combat. It was impossible for Ming or Korean troops to drive out Japanese troops by means of force.

It was not samurai's strength that made their victory. It's Korean soldier's unpreparedness and Japanese soldiers hardening through the long period of warring states that produced the results.
As I said, duiring the Koryo dynasty when military was more respected in Korea, samurais were no match against them. It's just the right timing in the history that resulted in such outcome.
And once again, building a castle and defending it is not any less of a part of war than wielding a sword or spear.
In fact, among the things Korea was famous for were archery, shipbuilding and it's castle building and defending of it. (not that it means anything but the game Age of Empires 2 also depicted Koreans as experts at castle/tower building)
Building castles and walls and guarding it is not something dishonourable or dirty.
Build a castle, turtle in it, and make the enemy exhaust itself and go away. That is, if you are able defend it that long, which not everyone can.
A war is not like one-on-one duel with nice rules and a ring with clear boundary. There's no such thing as 'even field' in a war. You have to use whatever means necessary to win the war (I'm not saying doing anything is justified. I'm simply saying hand-to-hand combat is not all there is about a war), and if what you can do the best is defending a castle wall, then you go for it. That's called maximizing one's own strength and minimizaing that of the enemy, which is essential in any conflict. After all, isn't this what lies behind all those victories of Yi Soonshin's? He made the situation so that he can't lose. And if the situation was bad for him, he wouldn't fight and wait till it becomes favourable. That is what makes him so famous and why he was so successful, not because he was a master swordman or an archer.

[donilpark]

So the whole "What the darn Mings are doing in Korea" arguement is moot; Ming couldn't stop Japanese, they best it could do was to hold them off, and Ming did take a heavy loss themselves in doing so, enough to lose the whole empire a few years later.

Ok, let's suppose they couldn't.
That doesn't mean they can come to Korea saying they would help and behind it's back, plan about splitting Korea in half or rape and pillage its people
or (I guess this could be a possible spoiler. Drag the line with your cursor to see the letters)
try to stop Koreans from fighting back against the Japanese while Koreans are being attacked

[florel]

Trespasser said:

What the darn Mings are doing in Korea" arguement is moot; Ming couldn't stop Japanese, they best it could do was to hold them off, and Ming did take a heavy loss themselves in doing so, enough to lose the whole empire a few years later.

The Imjin War was ONE of the reasons of Ming's fall. But it was not unique cause.

Ming Empire collapsed in 1644 when Li Zicheng (leader of the Chinese peasants' rebellion) captured Beijing and Emperor Chongzhen committed suicide.

We cannot count 46 years as "A FEW YEARS".

[donilpark]

svetlana said:

then Korea might be occupying today's Chinese territory and in the history books you would have seen Qing as one of Korean ancient dynasties

wow. to think that shaved foreheads and pigtails could have become fashionable on the peninsula

Wait, wait, if it happend that way, then Korean 'sangtoo' would have become fashinable for Chinese and Manchus alike, rather than pigtale being fashionable in Korea.

[svetlana]

donilpark said:

Wait, wait, if it happend that way, then Korean 'sangtoo' would have become fashinable for Chinese and Manchus alike, rather than pigtale being fashionable in Korea.

i thought ming chinese men wore the sangtoo too!

[Trespasser]

Ming Empire collapsed in 1644 when Li Zicheng (leader of the Chinese peasants' rebellion) captured Beijing and Emperor Chongzhen committed suicide.

We cannot count 46 years as "A FEW YEARS".

Nurhachi began his war against Ming from 1616. Nurhachi would not been able to begin his revolt had Ming's Northern frontier troop not been wiped out by the Japanese.

If you still doubt the effect of Yi Soon Shin's blockade, then let us consider "What if Yi Soon Shin wasn't a naval commander in 1592". What would have happened??? It's really simple, Konishi Yukinaka and Kato Kiyomasa would simply have driven into Ming, 100K more reinforcement arrived by the ship, wiped out Ming troops with their Samurai troops, sacked Beijing, and established the Ni Dynasty before 1600, it is that simple.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi had the most powerful troop in East Asia by late 16th century and no one could stop him, not Koreans, not Mings, and certainly not Manchus. What stopped Toyotomi's dream was Yi Soon Shin's blockade.

[florel]

Dear Trespasser,

You misunderstood me.

I NEVER doubt of YSS's great achievement.
EVEN Ming Chineses KNEW that YSS's victories (and especially his victory at Myungryang) saved Ming Empire from the Japanese invasion. Wanli gave to YSS many gifts and accorded to him a honorific naval supreme commander title of Ming Empire. They were very grateful to him.


What I invited you to think is to consider various factors in history ABOUT THE FALL OF MING EMPIRE.

If we study more, we can perceive that Ming Empire had so many troubles between the late 16th and the early 17th century let alone Japanese and Manchurian problems : rebellions, famine, corruption, internal conflicts between Confucians and bureaucrats, etc.

If the whole Ming Empire wasn't weakend by these various factors, the Chinese could have ONLY lost Liaodong. (Just think of North Song Empire.)


Do you know how Manchurians could enter in Beijing ?
By collaboration of the Chinese !

Manchurians couldn't have passed Shanhai Pass since they started the war against Ming. But, in 1644, when Beijing was captured by Li Zicheng, General Wu Sangui opened the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanhai Pass to let Manchu soldiers enter and he fought against Li Zichen in collaboration with them. This gesture resulted in the establishment of Qing Empire in the Continent.

[florel]

svetlana said:

donilpark said:

Wait, wait, if it happend that way, then Korean 'sangtoo' would have become fashinable for Chinese and Manchus alike, rather than pigtale being fashionable in Korea.

i thought ming chinese men wore the sangtoo too!

Exactly !