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Post by JPh on Jun 6, 2005 20:33:23 GMT -5
Ming China, were they an allie and a valuable help to Chosun, or were they a hinderance who connived with the Japanese? The more I watch this show, the more it shows them as the latter. I'd like to get the opinons of the third party Asian historic buffs here.
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Post by FrederickII on Jun 7, 2005 1:57:30 GMT -5
they were of great help and they paid dearly for victory on the battlefield. in 1 battle alone almost 40,000 were killed.
with out the Chinese, the Koreans would have kept them isolated in cities, but with the Chinese the Japanese were pushed back to kyungsang. but yes, their leaders were corrupt.
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Post by Choko on Jun 7, 2005 3:20:18 GMT -5
It is safe to say that Ming China helped Chosun push back the Japanese troops from the Korean peninsula. However, historical documents show that Chinese troops were as brutal as the Japanese invaders.
In addition to being bribed by Japanese, the corrupt Ming generals beheaded so many Chosun civillians to disguise the decapitated heads as those of Japanese soldiers. At that time, military leaders distinguished themselves in war through the number of enemy's head.
Moreover, Ming Chinese soldiers plundered many Chosun towns and raped Chosun women as brutally as the Japanese invaders.
Ryu Sung-ryong wrote in his book, The Book of Corrections, that "all the food in the country was sent to the Chinese soldiers so that some starved Chosun people ate the matter vomited by drunken Chinese soldiers".
Most of all, Chinese envoy discussed with Japanese envoy about dividing the Korean peninsula into 2 sections and getting the north and south land respectively. They have kept the negotiation secret to Chosun court throughout the war.
The 7-year war disillusioned Chosun people who had regarded their king(Seonjo) and Ming China as their "great father" or "savior". Korean people started to think China is the same as Japan in its selfishness and that nobody can help them except for themselves from then on.
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Post by James Ha on Jun 8, 2005 21:29:50 GMT -5
Come on, James, why don't you say something constructive?
Bo
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Post by FrederickII on Jun 8, 2005 23:28:33 GMT -5
I wonder what would have happened if the chinese and japanese decided to divide korea in 2. certainl yi soon shin would have beat the chinese at sea, but what would have happened if he didnt have a base on land???
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Post by IAPD3000 on Jun 9, 2005 12:07:47 GMT -5
In what episode will The Ming are going to appear? Will they able to help Chosun to defeat the Japanese?
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Post by TheBo on Jun 9, 2005 12:12:55 GMT -5
In what episode will The Ming are going to appear? Will they able to help Chosun to defeat the Japanese? Remember, if anyone is planning to post a spoiler about a particular episode, such as the above-requested info, please post it separately and put "spoiler ep # ___" in the subject line. Don't disappoint IAPD. Give him the info. He's been so good lately. ;D Bo |
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Post by skinz on Jun 9, 2005 14:47:16 GMT -5
In what episode will The Ming are going to appear? Will they able to help Chosun to defeat the Japanese? We're very close to the appearance of some Ming officials. I think its these two upcoming episodes or the following week. |
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Post by florel on Jun 9, 2005 17:03:16 GMT -5
Ming China, were they an allie and a valuable help to Chosun, or were they a hinderance who connived with the Japanese? Perhaps both of them. Unfortunately, Chosun army was not sufficiently powerful to expel invaders by their own hands and they lost too many men in the early war phase. But ironically it was because of Ming's intervention that the war came to be prolongated. Ming's generals prohibited Korean commanders from attacking the Japanese. lol I wonder what would have happened if the chinese and japanese decided to divide korea in 2. certainl yi soon shin would have beat the chinese at sea, but what would have happened if he didnt have a base on land??? For realization of this hypothesis (land division of Chosun), at least, two conditions would have been fulfilled even though we exclude Chosunese opinion on the subject : 1) Toyotomi Hideyoshi should have capitulated to Emperor Wanli. -> unacceptable condition to Hideyoshi. 2) Emperor Wanli should have given a princess to Japan's emperor as his second spouse. -> unthinkable to the emperor who was considering the Japanese as barbarian. (To him and to the Chinese of that epoch, EVERY foreigners were supposed to be barbarians.) To give some Chosun provinces to Japan ? The Ming's court was so suspiscious of Japan that it would have been difficult to be realized. In fact, it was not the Ming's court but Shen Weijing (envoy dispatched by Shi Xing, defense minister of Ming China) who negotiated the land division of Chosun with Konishi Yukinaga. Shen Weijing lied to the Ming's court that Hideyoshi capitulated and he didn't tell about the Japanese claims including the division of Chosun. And he also forged diplomatic documents with Konishi Yukinaga. (Konishi also misled Hideyoshi on his part.) When his lie was finally exposed, Shen Weijing was imprisoned with Minister Shi Xing and Ming's court sent again large number of troops to Chosun. * Modification : I found a fault and corrected it. Hideyoshi demanded the marriage between Japan's emperor (not himself  ) and Ming's princess. |
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Post by donilpark on Jun 9, 2005 18:45:26 GMT -5
I think Shen Weijing was executed for his tricks in the end.
Another thing to remember is that Ming was also a falling sun. Qing was rising to the power, and Ming's dispatch of troops to Chosun actually played a large part to bring its eventual downfall. If Ming decided it wanted to fool Chosun and take northern half of its territoty, then it would have had to supress the Koreans who would resist. And Ming could not afford something like that. They would rather leave Chosun alone and use its help to fight against Qing.
BTW, just a side note, Qing offered help in fending off Japanese, saying that they would like to help their parent. But Chosun rejected it. I wonder what might have happened if Chosun accepted their help instead of Ming. Would it only have advanced Chosun's eventual defeat to Qing which would happen only a few tens of years after the end of this war? Yeah, now that I think about it, probably.
Like the theme of the original poster, there's no one really to turn to when in comes to international relations. No matter how well you try to emballish it, all your neighbours are your enemies in the end.
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Post by JPh on Jun 9, 2005 19:48:38 GMT -5
That's interesting, weren't the Qings... Manchus who were known as the "Ya-ins" (bararians)? No wonder Chosun rejected their help! Manchus and Chosuns had been enemies for decades.
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Post by pakyownage4eva on Jun 9, 2005 22:54:43 GMT -5
wow thanks guys. never knew about the chinese's role in the war.
I don't really like hearing of Ming atrocities on top of Japanese barbarity, but least they did help -_-
Isn't it true that Admiral Yi gave the credit of HIS victories to the Ming Admiral just to get them Japanese out of Chosun?
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Post by donilpark on Jun 10, 2005 1:11:27 GMT -5
Yeah... although it's actually sad. Manchus and Koreans were one, really. Manchuria was Korea's domain since the very beginning (at least as far back as Ancient Chosun period, about 5000 years ago), and if anything, Manchus should be nearer to Koreans than to Chinese. Contrary to what history textbooks teach you, that Qing is a Chinese dynasty, Korea can have a better claim on that part of history. It was Shilla's last prince, Mauitaeja, who founded Later Jin, which would become Qing later. And anthropologically, linguistically, genetically and culturally speaking, they are far closer to Koreans then to the Chinese.
One of Qing's justification for invading Chosun just 38 years after Imjin war ended was a criticism that Chosun was siding with the Chinese, abandoning its brother, the Manchus.
Anyway, it's really funny to think about what might have been. If King Hyojong didn't pass away at such as young age (there are rumours of poisoning. Many, many of Chosun Kings have rumours of poisoning regarding their deaths, although none has any definitive proof) and successfully overthrew Qing as he planned, then Korea might be occupying today's Chinese territory and in the history books you would have seen Qing as one of Korean ancient dynasties. That's the interesting thing about history. Past is perceived and interpreted through our viewpoint that is shaped by our present situation. So Qing could as easily have been an ancient Korean dynasty as a Chinese dynasty or something else different altogether.
Right. The Chinese admiral (whose name in Chinese eludes me now... in Korean it's Jin Rin) was bribed by the Japanese and he was going to let Japanese army retreat safely to Japan, but Yi Soonshin moved him with his loyalty for his people and by promising that he will give all the credits to him.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jun 10, 2005 7:47:33 GMT -5
In what episode will The Ming are going to appear? Will they able to help Chosun to defeat the Japanese? Remember, if anyone is planning to post a spoiler about a particular episode, such as the above-requested info, please post it separately and put "spoiler ep # ___" in the subject line. Don't disappoint IAPD. Give him the info. He's been so good lately. ;D Bo Umm...i don't think that's much of a spoiler...we saw the Ming in episode 1-4, and we know that Korea was its on nation for at least a couple centuries after that, right But all, as Bo said, be careful fo potential spoiilers, & list the episode #, and leave enough spaces/ a chace for people not to read the spoilers.... |
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Post by TheBo on Jun 10, 2005 9:28:34 GMT -5
Umm...i don't think that's much of a spoiler...we saw the Ming in episode 1-4, and we know that Korea was its on nation for at least a couple centuries after that, right But all, as Bo said, be careful fo potential spoiilers, & list the episode #, and leave enough spaces/ a chace for people not to read the spoilers.... Well, I wasn't saying the info on which episode the Chinese would appear was a spoiler, I was saying if anyone had info on *specific events in future episodes*, they should post a spoiler thread. I'm not that silly. Well, almost. Good to have you back, JP. Bo |
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) and Ming's princess. 
