Episode 57 (Spoilers)

[captainamazing]

This forum seems to be pretty quiet for a while...

I don't know if it's aired in Chicago, but this episode just aired
in Los Angeles. Any thoughts on it?

I'm surprised they didn't show more of Yi Il's battle at Sangju, but it seems to have the first real action in this show since Ulginae and Nokdune on the show.

Is the actor who played Myungjong's crown prince from Age of Warriors one of the ministers at the beginning of the episode? The voice sounded about the same.

[moreshige]

captainamazing said:

This forum seems to be pretty quiet for a while...

I don't know if it's aired in Chicago, but this episode just aired
in Los Angeles. Any thoughts on it?

I'm surprised they didn't show more of Yi Il's battle at Sangju, but it seems to have the first real action in this show since Ulginae and Nokdune on the show.

Is the actor who played Myungjong's crown prince from Age of Warriors one of the ministers at the beginning of the episode? The voice sounded about the same.

You didn't see much of Yi Il at the battle of Sanju because he soon had to retreat.

..He was greatly heartened when the court granted to him the use of 300 crack troops from the capital as his personal contigent. Unfortuately this changed to despair when he discovered that the so-called crack troops consisted of a motley crew of new recruits, lowly government administrators and yangban students for the civil examinations who turned up with their books in their hands. Leaving nearly all of them behind he took along only 60 horsemen and headed for the rondezvous point at Mungyong.

When Yi Il arrived there were no other Korean troops to meet him because all had been called south to assmeble at Taegu. However, on making contact with Kim Su, Yi Il was urged to abandon Taegu and make a stand at Sangju. The survivors of the slaughter at Tongnae clearly needed a respite, so before heading for Sangju Yi Il pulled them out of Taegu garrison and sent them further back as a rearguard at the Choryong pass under Song Ung-gil .

At the battle of Sangju....fierce arquebus began to cut into the Korean front line. At this Yi Il ordered his men to return fire with their bows, but the arrows fell short of their targets. Once the Japanese began to surround and flank Yi Il's men on the hills, Yi turned his horse around to escape which became a signal for his entire army to follow suit, but few managed to flee before the Japanese were upon them. 300 were killed.


They retreated northwards the one thread of comfort Yi Il possessed was the thought that the rearguard he had sensibly sent back from Taegu were waiting for him at the impregnable Choryong pass, the only crossing point from south to north over the western end of the mighty Sobaek mountain range.

Choryong pass was a very significant strategic point because it was the only clear way to get to Seoul. It was surrounded by two mountainous regions which can be easily defended for ambush attacks. Yi il arrived there from his retreat from Sangju and discovered much to his horror that its defences were abandoned.
Sin Rip had panicked on hearing of the battle of Sangju and left the Choryong pass for the fortress of Chungju where he was finally met by Yi Il.

Much to Yi il's dismay, Sin Rip decided to abandon Chungju fortress and amass his troops on a hill to prepare for a calvary charge on the Japanese.

And as we saw in the drama, Sin Rip did not experience the Japanese arquebus yet and erronously believed they weren't effective. He thought a simple calvary charge would do but we all know what happened with that idea. Ever see the calvary charge in the "Last Samuai" or in history the British calvary charge in the battle of Waterloo ? Well, the same thing happened to Sin Rip. But unlike the drama, he died when he retreated behind the hill and ran into the river behind it.

Sin Rip tried twice to mount a calavry charge but his troops were driven back towards the river where they tried to escape. At the end Sin Rip rode into the river and killed himself along with 3000 of his men dead.

[Daemado]

Right on cue ... "The Marmot's Hole" (Korea-themed blog, in English) puts out this piece on the Mungyeong Sae Jae (translated as "Bird Pass")

blog.marmot.cc/archives/2005/04/06/mungyeong-sae-jae-through-kim-yeong-taeks-pen/

[Daemado]

moreshige said:

Choryong pass was a very significant strategic point because it was the only clear way to get to Seoul. It was surrounded by two mountainous regions which can be easily defended for ambush attacks. Yi il arrived there from his retreat from Sangju and discovered much to his horror that its defences were abandoned.
Sin Rip had panicked on hearing of the battle of Sangju and left the Choryong pass for the fortress of Chungju where he was finally met by Yi Il.

Much to Yi il's dismay, Sin Rip decided to abandon Chungju fortress and amass his troops on a hill to prepare for a calvary charge on the Japanese.

Episode 57 suggests that Shin Lip chose to do battle with the river (and a cliff) to his back because he lacked confidence in his men, and thought they would fight harder if there was no possibility of retreat.

I don't know if that's historical fact or dramatic license. But history does record that, in June 1950, some unnamed genius in Syngman Rhee's government suggested blowing up the Han River bridges to "encourage" the last-ditch defenders of Seoul. Coincidentally or not, the bridges were blown at the worst possible moment, trapping tens of thousands of soldiers and their equipment on the north bank of the Han (and killing hundreds of people who happened to be ON the bridges).

Anyway, thanks for the nice historical write-up. I look forward to each coming episode, even though my spouse thinks the show has dragged on much too long and has taken to calling it "Turtleship Z"

[captainamazing]

Do most people in Korea think of Shin Lip as being a fool for making such a mistake, or completely misguided/unlucky? Although it seems like he made a colossal blunder, I think he couldn't have been a total idiot, because he was responsible for beating off Nitangae by using cavalry armed with flails. Was it merely his underestimation of guns as portrayed on the show that sealed his fate?

[moreshige]

captainamazing said:

Do most people in Korea think of Shin Lip as being a fool for making such a mistake, or completely misguided/unlucky? Although it seems like he made a colossal blunder, I think he couldn't have been a total idiot, because he was responsible for beating off Nitangae by using cavalry armed with flails. Was it merely his underestimation of guns as portrayed on the show that sealed his fate?

Don't think idiocy think more in line with having too much arrogant pride for Shin Rip's own good. In the drama, you see his stubborness to be in line similar to Won Kyun. These men, it seems got too drunk on past accomplishmets that they were blind to the type of enemy they faced as well as the poor conditions and unpreparedness of the chosun army. The Jurchen were more or less barbarians while the Japanese were an experienced war machine that had previously fought for over a hundred years of civil warfare. At least in the drama we come to understand that Won Kyun and Shin Rip comes from the school of belief that personal glory is all that matters even if it meant the total annihilation of their own men. Their motto would probably be like, "Even in eminent loss, let's die gloriously." Their belief is diametrically opposed by the likes of YSS and Yu Song Ryung who believed the interests of the country and its people should take precedence above anything even the King himself. YSS also made great efforts to keep his men alive which is a reflection of his belief that none should die in vain.

That's why you see many disputes at court among the westerners and easterners about national security and defence. One side believed there's no need for military reform because you shouldn't change what had worked in the past. While the other side saw corruption in the system. For example, rich Yangban families (the aristocracy in Chosun) would bribe local magistrates to allow their sons to avoid military duty or let one of their slaves take their son's place. So what ends up happening is that the military ranks were never up to full strength. We witness this corruption firsthand when YSS first takes command over the left Cholla navy. Remember seeing all the generals under him getting flogged? They were responsible for the poor condition of the navy before he arrived.


Shin Rip the overall high general who had more sway over military policy did nothing but rather contribute to the corruption. I don't have the facts yet but I'll report on him another time.

Anyway during the battle near Chungju he only mustered only about 8,000 men in defence before King Sunjo fled Seoul. While Konishi's division the first to reach the capital had over twice the men.

[florel]

I think it's a huge insult to Shin Rip if we let him on the same level of Won Kyun.

Gen. Shin Rip was respected by the people of Chosun despite of his defeat while Won Kyun has been hated and despised by ancient and modern Koreans. (The drama presents very different image for both of them. )

The main problem of Chosun military leaders can be found in the fact that they had to command peasant soldiers. And none of them prepared the war except YSS. The surprise attack of the Japanese was very successful.

A few of Chosun commanders, defeated in the earlier battles, proved their capacity soon later as we see in the examples of Kwon Yul and Pak Jin (even though Gen. Kwon was not responsible for the result of Yong-In "Battle"). They learned something from their experiences evidently.

[pakyownage4eva]

What would've happened if Shin Rip did fight Konishi at Choryong.

The Japanese reached the capital in a matter of days....devastating but not surprising. Their army was all experienced in war and had muskets while the Chosunese army was almost the opposite.

I was touched by the Chosunese resistance at the forts...Song Sang Hyun died honorably trying to fight the inevitable...and that other guy I forgot.

I have major questions though:

Why did Yi Soon Shin refuse to combine navies with Won Gyun and not engage the Japanese?

Is there some flaw in the admiral's character? Everyone's human ...

I think I know the reason for the second question--he wasn't ready but I'm hoping someone else can answer.

oh, and also, florel, you said that people dislike Won Gyun, but why is that? Is it just because he almost lost the entire fleet?

[wangkon]

Admiral Yi did not come to Won's aid for two reasons. First of all because he was not ready. Essentially Yi had 24 ships to go against 700 Japanese ships at the early point in the war and he didn't want to use all his ships hastely without proper intelligence and training. Yi was not fully convinced that the Japanese might ambush in channel waters, etc. Secondly, Yi knew that Won was a popous ass. If he had come to Won's aid immediately, Won with his 4 remaining ships might have wanted overall command of the combined force and been a general headache of Yi. By waiting for Won to ask numerous times, it was a Phil Jackson-like mind game-ish ploy to break Won down and ensure that Yi would call the shots in tactics and strategy. Such were the games you had to play with bull headed, childish men like Won Kyun.

[florel]

pakyownage4eva said:

What would've happened if Shin Rip did fight Konishi at Choryong.

No one knows what would have happened.
But many Koreans consider that Shin Rip would not have been able to stop the Japanese advance toward Seoul even if he had kept Choryong Pass. Because it's not unique route to Seoul and Konishi's contingent was not unique Japanese troop.

pakyownage4eva said:

Why did Yi Soon Shin refuse to combine navies with Won Gyun and not engage the Japanese?

First, YSS had to receive the government's order because, at that time, Chosun military leaders couldn't move their troops out of their jurisdictional area without permission. And, of course, YSS had to take time to prepare battles. Then he waited the arrival of Yi Ok-Ki, Commander of Right Cholla Navy. But he departed without Right Cholla Navy finally because Yi Ok-Ki was too late. (The drama is different from this historical fact.)
It seems that Yi Ok-Ki needed more time to prepare because Right Cholla Navy's area was two or three times bigger than Left Cholla Navy's. It comprised West Sea and Cheju Island.

pakyownage4eva said:

Is there some flaw in the admiral's character? Everyone's human ...

The only thing I found as his "flaw" is the fact that he was very rigid man. He punished severely his men if they didn't follow well his instructions. But this severity made his navy well disciplined and it became a reason of their victories.
And perhaps he may have been a nervously sensitive man. I heard that YSS got stomach problems because of his stress.

pakyownage4eva said:

oh, and also, florel, you said that people dislike Won Gyun, but why is that? Is it just because he almost lost the entire fleet?

That's not all. Corruption, incompetence, debauchery, cowardice... These are characteristics of Admiral Won in real history.

[Shaughraun]

Great posts everyone. Thank you for some of the history and insight behind the show.
One question - why didn't they have cannons at the forts to defend against the Japanese attacks?

[pakyownage4eva]

that's a good question that I think I actually know.

Nobody knew that so many Japanese were going to attack in masses so I guess nobody saw the need to have cannons at forts. Firing cannons at small groups of men wouldn't work too well.

It's interesting how so many people thought engaging stubbornly into battle was the manly thing to do. Everybody thinks Yi Soon Shin is a coward right now ......

I just watched the episode when the king's abanding the palace and the people burn it to the ground...I guess Sonjo must have angered them a lot . and it ended there.

I love how they drag on and on...and not get to the naval battles ;/ which of course, Yi Soon Shin dominates.

[Alexa]

I just saw this episode last night and I have one quick question (which might sound dumb) But why did some of the commanders burn the battleships? Even Commander Won burned his.

As I was watching the show I was wondering why YSS wouldn't come to the aid of Commander Won. But then again YSS warned Commander Won that this would happen and that he had to strenghten the Navy. Of course Commander Won didn't listen to YSS.

It was sad to watch the scenes where the Japanese slaughtered the villagers. They actually showed a few women being stabbed with swords. I had to hold back some tears. Its sad because things like that did happen and thousands and thousands of innocent people (including women and children) died. It's amazing what greed and the need for power will do.

Florel and MoreShige, thanks for all the information. I didn't know any of these facts and though I've been enjoying this drama, it's always good to know some of the background history.

anyways I really hope they show the sea battles soon

[moreshige]

daemado said:

moreshige said:

Choryong pass was a very significant strategic point because it was the only clear way to get to Seoul. It was surrounded by two mountainous regions which can be easily defended for ambush attacks. Yi il arrived there from his retreat from Sangju and discovered much to his horror that its defences were abandoned.
Sin Rip had panicked on hearing of the battle of Sangju and left the Choryong pass for the fortress of Chungju where he was finally met by Yi Il.

Much to Yi il's dismay, Sin Rip decided to abandon Chungju fortress and amass his troops on a hill to prepare for a calvary charge on the Japanese.

Episode 57 suggests that Shin Lip chose to do battle with the river (and a cliff) to his back because he lacked confidence in his men, and thought they would fight harder if there was no possibility of retreat.

I don't know if that's historical fact or dramatic license. But history does record that, in June 1950, some unnamed genius in Syngman Rhee's government suggested blowing up the Han River bridges to "encourage" the last-ditch defenders of Seoul. Coincidentally or not, the bridges were blown at the worst possible moment, trapping tens of thousands of soldiers and their equipment on the north bank of the Han (and killing hundreds of people who happened to be ON the bridges).

Anyway, thanks for the nice historical write-up. I look forward to each coming episode, even though my spouse thinks the show has dragged on much too long and has taken to calling it "Turtleship Z"

I wouldn't be surprised if this were true, since Synman Rhee was thought to be a dictator by many.

[moreshige]

florel said:

I think it's a huge insult to Shin Rip if we let him on the same level of Won Kyun.

Gen. Shin Rip was respected by the people of Chosun despite of his defeat while Won Kyun has been hated and despised by ancient and modern Koreans. (The drama presents very different image for both of them. )

The main problem of Chosun military leaders can be found in the fact that they had to command peasant soldiers. And none of them prepared the war except YSS. The surprise attack of the Japanese was very successful.

A few of Chosun commanders, defeated in the earlier battles, proved their capacity soon later as we see in the examples of Kwon Yul and Pak Jin (even though Gen. Kwon was not responsible for the result of Yong-In "Battle"). They learned something from their experiences evidently.

Well, I guess the million-dollar question is, "Could Sin Rip have been better prepared ?" In light of what he had said to Yu song ryong that the Japanese and their muskets would miss their targets, he sounds arrogant and prideful. And also, why did he muster only 8000 men to defend Seoul? Did he have to wait for Sunjo's approval? If so, then maybe I can understand. But certainly in contrast to YSS's careful planning Sin Rip's conduct seems hasty and ill-prepared. Unless I'm misaken I blame him because he was a high general who could have done more for Chosun's overall defence.