Korean Naval Academy Museum

[Daemado]

I'm sure this place has been busy since IYSS first aired ... it's the ROK Naval Academy Museum in Chinhae, complete with its own turtle ship replica. I'd like to go but Chinhae is kind of a long walk from California.

Some interesting photos on these pages, including one of a cannon recovered from the sea floor. The caption states (euphemistically?) that the piece was presumed "dropped" during the Imjin war. I wonder if it came from one of the ships scuttled by the dynamic duo of Kyongsangdo, Pak Hong and Won Kyun.

www.lifeinkorea.com/Travel2/skyongsang/289

www.heritage.go.kr/eng/mus/unv_37.jsp

[generaldu]

daemado said:

I'm sure this place has been busy since IYSS first aired ... it's the ROK Naval Academy Museum in Chinhae, complete with its own turtle ship replica. I'd like to go but Chinhae is kind of a long walk from California.

Some interesting photos on these pages, including one of a cannon recovered from the sea floor. The caption states (euphemistically?) that the piece was presumed "dropped" during the Imjin war. I wonder if it came from one of the ships scuttled by the dynamic duo of Kyongsangdo, Pak Hong and Won Kyun.

www.lifeinkorea.com/Travel2/skyongsang/289

www.heritage.go.kr/eng/mus/unv_37.jsp

The odd shape of the cannon seen through the link above raises a number of questions. This had to be a deck mounted weapon (if it was a naval gun at all!) because of the strangely hub-shaped muzzle and extreme shortness of the barrel, both of which would have warranted against its firing through gun ports.

A weapon of this configuration would undoubtedly have had very short range accuracy and a disproportionately large muzzle blast. The hub-shaped muzzle might also indicate it was designed to fire a specific projectile.

Does anyone have an idea on this?

[FrederickII]

I dont know too much bout cannons, but could it have been an anti personnel weapon rather than an anti ship weapon?

[generaldu]

frederickii said:

I dont know too much bout cannons, but could it have been an anti personnel weapon rather than an anti ship weapon?

The weapon does call to mind the European musket known as the blunderbuss, whose flared barrel was mistakenly thought to impart a useful dispersal pattern when firing "shot" (bullets designed to fragment) at close range.

But having seen the wide variety of projectiles employed in Asian artillery my guess would be the "hub" at the muzzle end was made to accommodate the flange of some special purpose projectile.

One thing not emphasized in YSS is that artillery or musket projectiles had to be rammed tightly down the gun barrel to achieve a proper seal, otherwise some of the propellant force of the ignited powder would be wasted through leakage of the blast effect.

[Daemado]

generaldu said:

frederickii said:

One thing not emphasized in YSS is that artillery or musket projectiles had to be rammed tightly down the gun barrel to achieve a proper seal, otherwise some of the propellant force of the ignited powder would be wasted through leakage of the blast effect.

I recall seeing the gunners tamp a wooden block on top of the powder charge to seal the bore -- something that us military history nuts will recognize as a sabot.

[JPh]

The Japanese had muskets, Koreans had cannons. Which would you have prefered if you could chose only of them?

[Daemado]

generaldu said:

The odd shape of the cannon seen through the link above raises a number of questions. This had to be a deck mounted weapon (if it was a naval gun at all!) because of the strangely hub-shaped muzzle and extreme shortness of the barrel, both of which would have warranted against its firing through gun ports.

A weapon of this configuration would undoubtedly have had very short range accuracy and a disproportionately large muzzle blast. The hub-shaped muzzle might also indicate it was designed to fire a specific projectile.

Does anyone have an idea on this?

It looks like a small high-angle mortar -- the skinny part is the chamber and the fat bell-shaped mouth holds a large projectile. The shape and size remind one of a bell, which leads me to guess that they were made by bell makers.

Here's a photo of its big brother, a "daewangu," in another museum collection. Apparently it fired a 21cm (8 inch) projectile:

sca.visitseoul.net/jsp/sca/english/ethnic/i_weapon.jsp?num=06004

The description of the original "wangu" says it fired (among other things) an explosive projectile called the "Bigyeokjincheolloe" ("Heaven-Shaking Thunderbolt"). From other descriptions it was developed under the reign of our hero, King Sonjo, and sounds a lot like a 19th century shrapnel shell. Here are some photos of a Bigyeokjincheolloe in yet another Korean museum collection:

sca.visitseoul.net/jsp/sca/english/ethnic/i_weapon.jsp?num=06007

I'd guess it was used from the deck (of a panokson?) to deliver high-angle fire against enemy ships. One can imagine that a 21cm rock falling out of the sky could smash all the way through the deck and hull of a small vessel. I'd rather not think about the devastating injuries that the bigyeokjincheolloe could inflict if it exploded belowdecks. Big yeok indeed.

[TheBo]

daemado said:

I recall seeing the gunners tamp a wooden block on top of the powder charge to seal the bore -- something that us military history nuts will recognize as a sabot.

From the French for "shoe"--and it's also a type of wooden shoe. In modern artillery usage, a sabot is a "shoe" that falls away from the projectile, used to permit centering in the barrel.

Oh, etymology, my one and only love...

Bo

[generaldu]

thebo said:

daemado said:

I recall seeing the gunners tamp a wooden block on top of the powder charge to seal the bore -- something that us military history nuts will recognize as a sabot.

From the French for "shoe"--and it's also a type of wooden shoe. In modern artillery usage, a sabot is a "shoe" that falls away from the projectile, used to permit centering in the barrel.

Oh, etymology, my one and only love...

Bo

Our most frequent modern connection with sabot is as the root of the term sabotage, which was originally coined to apply to factory or mill workers who would intentionally produce bad work by working clumsily (as if using a shoe to strike their work or equipment.)

[generaldu]

daemado said:

generaldu said:

The odd shape of the cannon seen through the link above raises a number of questions. This had to be a deck mounted weapon (if it was a naval gun at all!) because of the strangely hub-shaped muzzle and extreme shortness of the barrel, both of which would have warranted against its firing through gun ports.

A weapon of this configuration would undoubtedly have had very short range accuracy and a disproportionately large muzzle blast. The hub-shaped muzzle might also indicate it was designed to fire a specific projectile.

Does anyone have an idea on this?

It looks like a small high-angle mortar -- the skinny part is the chamber and the fat bell-shaped mouth holds a large projectile. The shape and size remind one of a bell, which leads me to guess that they were made by bell makers.

Here's a photo of its big brother, a "daewangu," in another museum collection. Apparently it fired a 21cm (8 inch) projectile:

sca.visitseoul.net/jsp/sca/english/ethnic/i_weapon.jsp?num=06004

The description of the original "wangu" says it fired (among other things) an explosive projectile called the "Bigyeokjincheolloe" ("Heaven-Shaking Thunderbolt"). From other descriptions it was developed under the reign of our hero, King Sonjo, and sounds a lot like a 19th century shrapnel shell. Here are some photos of a Bigyeokjincheolloe in yet another Korean museum collection:

sca.visitseoul.net/jsp/sca/english/ethnic/i_weapon.jsp?num=06007

I'd guess it was used from the deck (of a panokson?) to deliver high-angle fire against enemy ships. One can imagine that a 21cm rock falling out of the sky could smash all the way through the deck and hull of a small vessel. I'd rather not think about the devastating injuries that the bigyeokjincheolloe could inflict if it exploded belowdecks. Big yeok indeed.

This weapon would also have been very unpleasant to fire from the relatively confined space of a ship's deck due to the large muzzle blast and recoil effects.

In European fleets, special ships with reinforced decking were built to carry mortars. They were known as bomb ketches and service on them was viewed as far less desireable than on the other warships of the period, whose conditions were also far from tolerable.

[TheBo]

generaldu said:

Our most frequent modern connection with sabot is as the root of the term sabotage, which was originally coined to apply to factory or mill workers who would intentionally produce bad work by working clumsily (as if using a shoe to strike their work or equipment.)

Aigu! Aigu! Marry me, General Du! That's my haiku!

Okay, don't all you other guys get upset and jealous. I'm just kidding.

Bo

[generaldu]

thebo said:

generaldu said:

Our most frequent modern connection with sabot is as the root of the term sabotage, which was originally coined to apply to factory or mill workers who would intentionally produce bad work by working clumsily (as if using a shoe to strike their work or equipment.)

Aigu! Aigu! Marry me, General Du! That's my haiku!





Okay, don't all you other guys get upset and jealous. I'm just kidding.

Bo

And besides, I fear that you just want me for my word skills and really wouldn't respect me as a person.

[TheBo]

generaldu said:

And besides, I fear that you just want me for my word skills and really wouldn't respect me as a person.

Hah! Correctamundo!

Bo

[jk]

generaldu said:

daemado said:

I'm sure this place has been busy since IYSS first aired ... it's the ROK Naval Academy Museum in Chinhae, complete with its own turtle ship replica. I'd like to go but Chinhae is kind of a long walk from California.

Some interesting photos on these pages, including one of a cannon recovered from the sea floor. The caption states (euphemistically?) that the piece was presumed "dropped" during the Imjin war. I wonder if it came from one of the ships scuttled by the dynamic duo of Kyongsangdo, Pak Hong and Won Kyun.

www.lifeinkorea.com/Travel2/skyongsang/289

www.heritage.go.kr/eng/mus/unv_37.jsp

The odd shape of the cannon seen through the link above raises a number of questions. This had to be a deck mounted weapon (if it was a naval gun at all!) because of the strangely hub-shaped muzzle and extreme shortness of the barrel, both of which would have warranted against its firing through gun ports.

A weapon of this configuration would undoubtedly have had very short range accuracy and a disproportionately large muzzle blast. The hub-shaped muzzle might also indicate it was designed to fire a specific projectile.

Does anyone have an idea on this?

If you're referring to above image, you're correct that it was hard to be fired through gun port. Actually, 'wangu' is close to western mortar and was generally regarded as a siege weapon to be used against large stationary target. 'Wangu' either fired a big stone ball or 'bee-gyeok-jin-cheol-loe' which was time fuse detonated explosive shell invented just before, or maybe during the Imjin war.

In addition to wood block, clay was used to seal the bore. One example from 17th century artillery manual description is follow: when firing ~100 medium sized lead shots, clean the bore, then put a wick, load gunpowder, seal with scrap paper and tap gently, seal again with wood block, load ~30 lead shots and seal with clay, load ~30 lead shots again and seal with clay, load another ~30 lead shots and seal with clay, then finally load one large cannon ball(matching bore diameter) and tap hard. It literally means filling up bore with bunch of projectiles and sealants, Chosun cannon was robust enough to take such heavy loads repeatedly. But drama skips all these steps except wooden block.

[Daemado]

Thanks for the info jk! Sounds like it would take just about forever to load a cannon with shot that way. I do get nervous on the show seeing large open containers of powder sitting out in the open. Did Korean gunners ever store premeasured powder charges in cloth bags?

Here are some larger photos of the 19th century daewangu from the National Museum of Korea:





Here are the stats:

Daewangu ("Large" Mortar)

Designated Number : Treasure No. 857
Date of Designation : March 14, 1986
Period : Joseon Era (11th year of King Heonjong's rule, 1845)
Size/Style : 64.4cm in length, 26.3cm in diameter of the muzzle, and 310kg in weight
Material : Iron
Owner : State-owned
Location : National Museum of Korea, 1 Sejongno, Jongno-gu, Seoul, Korea

This wangu, or literally "wide-mouthed jar", is a large gun developed during the Joseon era to fire shells such as danseok ("round stone") or the hollow shot of jincheonnoe ("heaven-shaking thunderbolt").

One of Joseon's major heavy weapons, the mortar was used in battles both on land and sea. Joseon developed many types of mortar from sosowangu ("extra small jar") to byeoldaewangu ("extra large jar"). The one shown here is daewangu, a "large" mortar, and known to be the only example of this type still remaining in Korea.

A Joseon mortar consists of three parts, wan ("jar"), reinforce and powder chamber. Here, wan is the muzzle through which shots are loaded in, and reinforce is the part between the muzzle and the powder chamber in which gyeongmok, or "collision wood", is built in for extra explosive power. This mortar has two vents, or "powder line holes", at the powder chamber through which the charge is ignited, five "bamboo joints" which are designed to prevent the mortar from damage via efficient cooling, and a pair of handles for easy mobility.

An inscription on this gun says that it was made in 1845 along with other two gun barrels. According to historical records, this mortar needs about 35 nyangs (approx. 1 kilogram) of powder for each fire, and the shooting range was about 200 meters (400 bo) for danseok 250 meters (500 bo) for jincheonnoe.