Re: Seung-ja guns, muskets, and rimfire arrows.

[Choko]

James said:

What is Seung-ja guns?

Seung-ja Chongtong (=Seung-ja gun) is a portable cannon invented in 1583.

More pics and video about Seung-ja guns
sca.visitseoul.net/korean/ethnic/i_weapon06005.htm

Why does Shin Lip think muskets are weak?

Actually, No muskets can match this Seun-ja Chongtong in fire power. That's why General Shin Rip said to the king that muskets are weak. He did not realize that muskets would be more convenient to carry. In addition, Seung-ja Chongtong was likely to miss the target.

Here is the comparison between the two weapons.

[ Japanese musket ] vs. [ Chosun's Seung-ja Chongtong]
Barrel of a gun 140cm vs. 50~70cm
Killing range 100m vs. 30m
Rapidity of fire 2~3 times per minute vs. 1 time per minute
Bead has vs. has not
ignition automatic vs. hand-operated

Does he not know what a musket is?
Why don't the Chosun Army use muskets?

Japanese muskets were imported from Europe by Portuguese missionaries.
Chosun and Ming China did not know about that.

Why do they(Chosun) use arrows?

Korea(Chosun) has been and is famous for its archery skill.
Look at the Olympic records of archery match.
www.kiat.net/olympics/sports/archery.html
www.seoulsisters.com/magazines_2004/issue%2016/archery04.htm

What is more better to use a musket or arrows?

Arrows, especially Chousn arrows, are a lot wider killing range than muskets.
However, in a close combat, muskets are more efficient.

Don't they have gunpower? They used cannons.

Chosun navy had very powerful gunpower while Japanese navy had no gunpower at all.
Admiral Yi took advantage of it efficiently.

[Choko]

Oops, I made a mistake.
Seung-ja Chongtong (=Seung-ja gun) was invented in 1579 and first used in 1583.

[Choko]

Here is more information about Chosun's gunpower
(Name of weapon / range)

Cheon-ja Chongtong / 1.1km


Hyeon-ja Chongtong / 900m


Hwang-ja Chongtong / 1.1km


Seung-ja Chongtong / 200m


Japanese musket / 50m


information from
majestyperson.com.ne.kr/imjinarm.htm

[ID]

This show, though I believe we've discussed it before, really annoys me, with the fact that their "muskets" can fire so rapidly. Perhaps it is to save time, yet I still can't see how it is worth it to film it with musket that can fire as fast as a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Choko]

What happened?
The original post written by James Ha do not exist here.
Were his posts deleted by the administrator? or by himself?
That really ticks me off.

[florel]

I have noted that he always delete his question postings after obtaining answers. So he makes other as if they posted those questions.

It's not gentle, Powerless James Ha.

[Choko]

OK. Dear James Ha.



....... Sorry for the Korean slang.

[jk]

seung-ja chong-tong(gun) is basically a miniature cannon which can be held & fired by one person, much like an European hand cannon before the invention of matchlock musket. Its major disadvantage is its primitive ingnition method: gunner has to lit wick, take aim, and wait til wick burns completely- This leads to poor accuracy and very slow rate of fire, makes it difficult to operate effectively in field battle since fast moving units could overrun gunners while reloding. (could be an useful weapon when defending a fortress, for its raw firepower)

Ironically, it was Shin Rip and his army, who previoulsly & effectively used seung-ja chongtong in actual battle against Jurchen tribes, so he knew too well about merits & weaknesses of this weapon and he thought musket was no different. He was over confident and he believed he could overrun enemy musketeers with his cavalry while they reload their guns.

By that time, Chosun knew what musket was and even had some samples acquired from Japanese. But Chosun had great composite bows and bunch of fire arms already(although mostly primitive types), hence thought having musket was not cost effective, nor necessary for its army.

Also, Chosun and Japan developed their metal work technology in different way: Chosun developed sophisticated casting techniques(originally to cast huge temple bells, later adopted to cannon production) while Japan developed sophisticated forging techniques(to produce fine blades). Making musket barrels was quite similar with making katana blades, so Japan at that time was in better position for replicating European muskets without major difficulty. (But they couldn't replicate Chosun's heavy cannons until the end of war)

During the war, Chosun also replicated matchlock muskets successfully and slowly began to equip some of its ground troops with muskets, but I don't think this drama will ever depict that. (If I remember correctly, those were smiths from YSS's naval base who replicated muskets for the first time in Chosun, using samples acquired from the enemy)

Another reason Chosun favored arrows & bows is that it had many good archers(In fact, archery was widely promoted, and was one of the most important part of military examination), best composite bows, and special type of long-range arrows. But compared with muskets, bows are generally much more difficult to learn(It takes many years to become a good archer), has less armor piercing power, and surprisingly, making a fine composite bow takes longer time and is more expensive than making a matchlock musket. (all these factors make musket a much better choice for modern conscripted army)

Chosun had developed various types of fire arms and due to its topnotch casting techniques(in fact, among the best of that time), Chosun cannons could have small size (about 1/2 to 1/3 the bulk of comparable European cannons) without sacrificing performance, in terms of projectile weight & range of fire.
But again, the problem was that most 16th century Chosun generals didn't know how to use them effectively in battle, except YSS and some other few.

[Aging Warrior]

Guest-Choko said:

OK. Dear James Ha.
....... Sorry for the Korean slang.

Care to translate?

[skinz]

Guest-Choko said:

What happened?
The original post written by James Ha do not exist here.
Were his posts deleted by the administrator? or by himself?
That really ticks me off.

So he/she got you too,huh?

[generaldu]

florel said:

I have noted that he always delete his question postings after obtaining answers. So he makes other as if they posted those questions.

It's not gentle, Powerless James Ha.

Somehow, it seems very fitting to me that James Ha should have the last laugh.

[moreshige]

generaldu said:

Somehow, it seems very fitting to me that James Ha should have the last laugh.

I have a huge urge to tell his mom what he did. lol

[Eowyn]

generaldu said:

Somehow, it seems very fitting to me that James Ha should have the last laugh.

lol!

[WangKon936]

JK,

Excellent summary on the whole musket vs. bows vs. cannons debate. Very educational and informative! I don't know if many others can appreciate your valuable knowledge here but I want to let you know that I certainly did! I'm going to cut and paste your posting and share it with some of my friends, including Eric Niderost, who wrote a few articles on Admiral Yi and the Turtle Ships for Osprey Military Journal and the magazine Military Heritage.

[Choko]

Aging said:

Care to translate?

Well, I'm sorry I can't.
If dear James Ha is able to understand Korean, he will be upset about the Korean slang. Hahaha ;D
If dear James Ha is unable to understand it, then... he does not know what he is said. what a nice revenge.

I agree with Moreshige's idea.