Re: Who actually invented the idea of the Turtlesh

[skinz]

The Turtle ship idea was already used before Yi Soon Shin time, so Yi Soon Shin didn't invent it. What Yi Soon Shin did was modify it.

Was Yi Soon Shin the first person to use the turtleships (Kobukson) in battle?

Good question. Probabaly someone else will help you out here.

[jk]

There's written record dated back to King Taejong period(1400-1418) about turtle ship being tested & used for combat training, but turtle ship of that time was probably just an experimental. There's no record indicating it's officially commissioned for actual combat use.

It is not impossible to think that Yi Soon-Shin may have got some idea from old records, but his turtle ship was totally new design since its main structure was based on 'Pan-ok sun'('sun' means ship), which was developed & commissioned during King Myung Jong period(1545¡­1567). (You will see a lot of 'Pan-ok Sun' in drama although restoration is not very accurate.)
'Pan-ok sun' quickly became standard warship for Chosun navy during mid 16th century. They were specifically built for gun battles, featuring thick wooden shielding all around and has wide & flat upper deck dedicated to guns and combatants. Yi's turtle ship was roughly a slimmed down & roofed(and may be iron-cladded) version of 'Pan-ok sun'. (Drama depicts him as if he's the first person utilizing guns in naval battle in Korea but in fact, bronze guns began see their use in naval battles since early 14th century in Korea. What Yi Soon-shin did was perfecting tactics & strategy.)

To answer your question, it is Yi Soon-Shin who started (or approved) the project, and it is probably Na Dae-Yong who was more involved in actual ship building and technical works. (it's like CEO and chief engineer relationship)

[FrederickII]

Another question i w ould like to know is, was Yi Soon Shin the first to use actual iron plating or were the earlier Koryo ships plated with iron?



also, have these ships ever been found?

[donilpark]

I happened to download an episode of 'History special' about Koryo warships. I might be able to answer your question after I finish watching it.

[jk]

A sunken Koryo merchant ship was discovered & recovered during late 70s' but it was a wooden ship. (some might wonder how can a wooden ship last 700+ years at the bottom of sea but there are several similar cases, like recovery of some viking ships etc.)
Information about Koryo warship is limited, and I haven't heard anything about iron plated Koryo ships yet.

Also, there's big controversy, whether or not Yi Soon-Shin's turtle ship was really iron plated.
No Korean record (including Yi Soon-Shin's official report to the King) mention about iron plates being used on Turtle ship. Only some Japanese records do, but Japanese records of that time were mostly unofficial records from famed warrior clans and therefore often exaggerated, so it's somewhat hard to use them as a proof. When turtle ship story was introduced to western world, it was mostly Japanese point of view, so 'iron-clad ship' belief became official without proper verification.

There have been some attempts to discover remnants of turtle ship (motivated by discovery of Koryo merchant ship mentioned above), but all failed. Only text records and few poorly detailed paintings are remaining.

Yi Soon-shin actually built only 3 turtle ships, but turtle ship became secondary warship for Chosun navy (Pan-ok sun still remained as primary) after Imjin war and more of them were built. Remaining records and paintings suggest that they were used until 19th century without major modification, and there were as many as 40 turtle ships on active duty during certain period. After 19th century, Chosun dynasty became too poor and corrupt to properly maintain its military forces, realized old weapons are no longer valuable, that's the main reason why turtle ship disappeared so quckly from history. (probably abandoned, dismantled and used as timber.)

[FrederickII]

I think we can reasonably assume that there was something different about these ships. For some reason, the Japanese were in fear of these ships. It doesn’t make sense that Yi soon shin would use ships with a wooden roof because as the show pointed out, the enemy could set it on fire and there would be no way or t he crews to put it out.


so, what was so scary about these ships?


donilpark

where did you download the special? i would really like to see it.

[moreshige]

In a memorial to the battle of Sach 'on, YSS writes:

"....with a dragon's head, from whose mouth we could fire our cannons, and with iron spikes on its back to pierce the enemy's feet when they tried to board......"

At the very least, we know the turtle ship had iron spikes.

[Trespasser]

> I think we can reasonably assume that there was something different about these ships.

Yea, it was impossible to board. That was about it. And it looked strange too. People tend to fear things they haven't seen before.

> It doesn’t make sense that Yi soon shin would use ships with a wooden roof because as the show pointed out, the enemy could set it on fire and there would be no way or t he crews to put it out.

I don't believe the real engineer behind the design would have thought of that. Afterall, the concept of Iron-armor ship is Japanese and not Korean, as Oda Nobunaga built and used three Iron-armor adakebunes against his enemies. Since Japanse were aware of the infamous Iron-armor battleships of Nobunaga, they would have just assumed that the turtle ship too was Iron-armored due to its darker coloring.

After all, all three turtle ships were burned and went down to the bottom of sea when Won Gyun led all of Yi Soon Shin's 150 fleets to their doom, so the turtle ships were certainly not indestructable or unburnable.