|
Post by donilpark on Feb 6, 2005 1:10:06 GMT -5
Just to add a small note, the turtle appearance also had an intimidating effect as well. So the turtle concept may not have been entirely for nothing.
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 6, 2005 2:57:49 GMT -5
Koreans used V-shaped hull ships for at least 800 years before the coming of "flat bottom" hull battleships. Why? Because of cannons. allow myself to add a correction on your exposition. Korean vessels with flat-bottom had already existed before the use of naval guns. Their shape was influenced NOT from naval guns BUT from natural conditions in Korea (the topography of the sea coast with much indented coastlines and the big water level difference between high and low tide). Koreans used naval guns in sea battle for the first time in the World history at the battle of Jinpo in 1380 (Koryo period) against Japanese pirates, two centuries earlier than in the western Europe. The appearance of the plat-bottomed ship largely precedes this date. (Cf. An english information on the korean Navy History www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/navy-history.htm)An oldest korean (and asian) flat-bottomed ship, dated mid-11th century was excavated in 1984 in southern west sea (South Cholla province). Some specialists even suppose that vessels of this type would have been used from the Antiquity period. As you can read Korean, I present you two webpages written in Korean about korean ancient vessels. They will help you. www.chemmate.com/news/c6.htm (in Korean) www.kdlpsds.org/kdlp/?doc=bbs/gnuboard.php&bo_table=m_board1&wr_id=2042 (in Korean)
|
|
|
Post by BAE on Feb 6, 2005 15:52:15 GMT -5
thanks choko. this was soooo cool. much better than sky-scrapers. ;D
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 7, 2005 9:42:52 GMT -5
The plate armor reference comes from Japanese sources, not Korean sources. The "Turtle Ship"'s armor was meant to stop bullets and Samurais trying to jump aboard, for which spiked wooden armor was sufficient. It later turned out the whole "Turtle Ship" concept proved to be unnecessary since it was possible to attack Japanese fleet with the long-range cannons 1 km away and Japanese never even got the chance to approach within the range of their short-range cannons and rifles. It is almost universal in military lore for the defeated to attribute their losses to the victor's secret weapons, sneak attacks or genius rather than fully face their own failures as factors contributing to defeat. Thank all you guys for providing so much information on the turtle boats. They were certainly a clever and innovative military design. As with other decisive (and legendary) weapons of war, such as the Allied Air Forces' Heavy Bombers of WW II, there will always be a lively debate on how essential they actually were to the outcome when all things are considered.
|
|
|
Post by Wangkon936 on Feb 7, 2005 16:58:54 GMT -5
The turtle ship is basically just a panokson with a dragon's head in the front and a wood planked roof above. Iron plates added later.
|
|
|
Post by ID on Feb 7, 2005 17:34:20 GMT -5
It is almost universal in military lore for the defeated to attribute their losses to the victor's secret weapons, reminds me of when the battleship Maine was destroyed by a storm of of the coast of Cuba, and Pulitzer put it down as an attack by "Spain's secret war machine"
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 8, 2005 9:04:21 GMT -5
reminds me of when the battleship Maine was destroyed by a storm of of the coast of Cuba, and Pulitzer put it down as an attack by "Spain's secret war machine" The Maine actually blew up in Havana harbor but the cause has remained a mystery. It certainly could have been an on-board accident involving the munitions magazines, etc. Subsequent U.S inquiries were of course, self-serving. You are correct that Pulitzer and the American Press blamed it on the Spanish and the incident was used as a rationale for the war that would ultimately see the U.S. receive Guam, The Philippines and Puerto Rico via treaty from Spain. These acquisitions would solidify the U.S. hegemony in Latin America and establish the significant U.S presence in the Pacific that attracted Japanese military attention in 1941.
|
|
|
Post by WangKon936 on Feb 9, 2005 1:31:17 GMT -5
There are ALOT of myths surrounding the turtle ships (or the "Kobukson" as it is called in Korean). Were they the first iron clads warships? Well, it depends on how you define "iron clad." They were not iron clads like the Monitor or Merrimack, which had steam engines to drive around all that additional weight. Admiral Yi Sun Shin wrote that "iron covered the top and important parts of the hull" so the entire ship was not covered in iron. It simply could not be as accounts describe it "darting" in around and through enemy formations, so it couldn't have been too heavy. The Kobukson was "iron clad" in a way that iron was selectively used to cover the top (in the form of octagonal plates) against fire arrows and boarding and their were iron fittings around vulnerable parts of the hull that helped keep the wood together during ramming, kind of like the iron fittings on Chinese and Korean chests and cabinets.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin never had more then five Kobuksons at any given time. Korean nationalists will say that he had as many as 20, but that's simply not true. If you read Admiral Yi's war diaries and his war memorials to court, you'd know that the bulk of his fleet consisted fo panoksons, the big "board roofed" ships that are frequently mentioned in the war diary and war memorials to court. Admiral Yi defeated the Japanese in narrow channel waters, not the open ocean, where the Korean's superior knowledge of the tides put the larger Japanese fleet at a disadvantage. In such waters, it was manuverability, not speed, that gave a fleet it's advantage, that is why all the Korean ships, panoksuns and Kobuksons alike, had a flat bottom. You can rotate 360 degrees easily with a flat bottom, where a conventional bowed ship you'd need to move in order to turn.
Panoksuns and Kobuksons had different roles in the Korean navy in the Imjin Wars. The role of a Kobukson was to sail directly into the Japanese fleet, ramming with its 24 cannons ablazing and break up the Japanese formations. Once the Japanese formations lost cohesion, then a wall of Panoksons would close in, firing "black" cannon that would arch in the air and land incenerary bombs on the wood decks of Japanese ships as the Kobuksons would continue to wreck havoc within the Japanese formations and make it hard for them to close in on the bulk of the Korean fleet. The Japanese themselves called the Kobukson "blind ship," using the same word to describle a blind samurai who would run into a formation of enemy soliders and swing his katana wildly around, hitting all in his path.
The Kobukson was a truely remarkable vessel, innovative and well ahead of its time. However, it was not the decisive factor in defeating the Japanese Navy. The Japanese were beated by Admiral Yi's knowledge of the tides and narrow channel waters and brilliant use of the right ships to maximize the tactical advantage. Technologically, it was Korea's superior cannons, incinerary bombs and fire arrow machines, along with the right employment of the Kobuksons, that put the Korean fleet to advantage each and every time.
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 9, 2005 8:57:29 GMT -5
Just for the record, America's Civil War ironclads (some 250 years later!) were also wooden hulled vessels with iron cladding on the upper surfaces and were a small minority of the total fleets on either side. Many were hasty improvizations and barely seaworthy.
I have read quite a bit on the history of warship development (with a natural bias to the West) and this ingenious chapter in Korean history has been unjustly neglected.
|
|
|
Post by skinz on Feb 18, 2005 13:40:03 GMT -5
Just so everyone knows, Episode 48 is when the developement of the turtle ships come into the story. Although I can't understand a word of what they're saying, its rather fascinationg on how the concept was born. Also, to any AOW fans, The Archfiend's illegitmate son Ji Soon joins the casts and partner up with someone to design the boats.
|
|