THE TURTLE SHIP

[kathleen34]

I know I'm jumping way ahead here ... but won't it be the best when the Turtle Ship makes its appearance. I just wonder how they will construct it.

ok... I'm done now.

[FrederickII]

Oh absoutely

From Bo - Frederick, you need to mark your spoilers better.

*****************SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER*************








from history:





won kyun looses all of the d**n ships to the japanese. that's why we didnt see them in the beginning.


*********THIS WAS A SPOILER*********

[Choko]

Here is an English Article about the Turtle Ship ;D
english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20050202/301900000020050202091734E7.html

[generaldu]

Guest-Choko said:

Here is an English Article about the Turtle Ship ;D
english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20050202/301900000020050202091734E7.html

Thanks Choko, that link is very illuminating.

Being familiar with European warcraft of this era I was puzzled as to how oarmen and cannon crews could efficiently and safely share a common deck on such a short ship, as most depictions of the Turtle ships indicate.

In battle conditions the critical actions of either group would most certainly be impeded by mishaps occurring to the other and the ships' ability to fight and maneuver would be seriously compromised.

Given the historical accounts that these ships were very nimble in action we might have to reconsider the conventional wisdom as to how their interiors were laid out.

This puzzlement only enhances the legendary aspect of the Turtle ships' reputation as, centuries later, we are still trying to figure how their decisive capabilities were packed into such a relatively small package.

[kathleen34]

thanks for that link....

The Turtle Ship was conceived, designed, built and USED - No computers, no over-night deliveries, no globabl communication of any kind ... and it had to perform the first time out ...How DID they do that?

Today we're impressed with the likes of Extreme House Makeover.

...these historical dramas make us realize how good we have it.

[skinz]

kathleen34 said:

Today we're impressed with the likes of Extreme House Makeover.

HA HA HA! So true yet so very sad.

[generaldu]

Things have somehow gone bad as they get easier.

In World War II the state-of-the-art American fighter plane known as the Mustang went from design to prototype in 120 days (within wartime constraints the British had stipulated). It would ultimately secure Allied air supremacy over Western Europe.

Today an equivalent aircraft would take a decade or so to develop in peacetime, cost billions, and never even begin to justify its cost in action because there is no credible opposition.

[Choko]

The cover of the book in the article.

The theory received wide media attention here in August last year when a Korean-American businessman in New York put a 17th-century painting, believed to depict the turtle ships, on public display.

The 17th century painting is
imgnews.naver.com/image/023/2004/08/18/200408180325_01.jpg

Here is a photo of the turtle boat taken by a Korean YSS fan. He went to Buan where is the filming location of The Immortal Yi Soon-shin, and took this photo. I'm not sure whether this is the real turtle boat we will watch in the show or not.

[skinz]

Here i am thinking I'm a fan of YSS. Kudos to the fan who took the picture. Hopefully, they didn't catch him sneaking around.

[generaldu]

Thanks again Choko.

These boats raise so many questions.

We know that the early steamboat ironclads of the American Civil War (one class was known as Pook Turtles, after their builder, Samuel Pook) were extremely underpowered and moved ponderously, surviving combat only because of their armor.

How were the Korean oarsmen able to propel their Turtle Ships effectively?

Their task would have been made more difficult by the short, broad-beamed hull which would have also put great strain on the helmsmen to maintain directional stability. This difficulty would exist even if the ships didn't actually have plate armor, as some have suggested.

War vessels which rely critically on oar power are usually made with long narrow hulls (often with overhanging upper works) which allow for easier movement through the water.

In the Western World the Mediterranean was the principle combat zone for such ships, from the triremes of ancient Greece to the galleys and galleasses of more modern times.

[florel]

Very cute turtle ships pictures. Thanks, Choko.




About your question on korean ancient battleships, generaldu, i think it's better not to give you the answer now for avoiding spoilers. I think it could be a spoiler for some non-korean TV spectators. You will get responses in futur espisodes.

I just would like to mention that Korean ancient ships and battleships had been developped in accordance with the topography of the korean coast. Chosun battleships had their own strong and weak points. Admiral YSS maximized their strength and minimized their weakness by his tactics and strategies against Japanese battleships.

[generaldu]

Thanks florel.

I am very interested in the history and development of ships and this is my first exposure to the way in which Korean shipbuilders grappled with the problems inherent in designing wooden warships of the pre-steamboat era.

From culture to culture the differences between the designs of ships can be as distinctive and interesting as the differences one sees in the other creative arts.

[Hachiman Taro]

generaldu said:

From culture to culture the differences between the designs of ships can be as distinctive and interesting as the differences one sees in the other creative arts.

This is so true even in comparatively modern times. In WWII there were a number of ships designed for roughly the same type of conditions but constructed with very different appearance, depending on their country of origin (although basic dimensions for each ship type were not too different). Speaking of the "art" aspect of building warships, I am reminded of one account of the Channel Dash in WWII written by Martin Stephen, an American, I believe (the chapter is from a book published by the Naval Institute Press). He describes the German battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as "surpassingly beautiful". There is another quote in this chapter from a British pilot who didn't realize what ship he was looking at when he apparently said "I didn't think we had such beautiful warships" (the flyer had apparently seen the German heavy cruiser, Prinz Eugen steaming up the Channel).

[Trasspasser]

The historical significance of "Turtle Ship" will be discounted in this TV series. Not only did Yi Soon Shin have only three "Turtle Ship"s in total(out of 150 ships that he had before Won Gyun sank them all), it proved to be not as effective in battle as claimed. Casualty analysis points that "Turtle Ship" crews suffered the highest casualty rate of all.

Yi Soon Shin was able to win battles because he kept a distance of about 1 km between his fleet and Japanese fleet and blasted Japanese fleet away with cannons, not because of "Turtle Ships" which was built for a close range combat.

[Trasspasser]

How were the Korean oarsmen able to propel their Turtle Ships effectively?

They stood up and used their whole body to pull. Both Japanese and Korean ships of the era did use sails to cruise. Oarsmen came in handy to attain combat speed for a short period.

Their task would have been made more difficult by the short, broad-beamed hull which would have also put great strain on the helmsmen to maintain directional stability.

Japanese ships didn't have this problem because of their V-shaped hulls.

Korean "battle" ships used 'flat bottom" hull design on purpose to attain stability during cannon firing. Each ship carried about 20 long range cannons of which 8 could be fired at the same time and firing all 8 cannons could capsize the ships without the "flat bottom". The directional stability was provided by a pair of long tails acting as vertical fins.

This difficulty would exist even if the ships didn't actually have plate armor, as some have suggested.

The plate armor reference comes from Japanese sources, not Korean sources. The "Turtle Ship"'s armor was meant to stop bullets and Samurais trying to jump aboard, for which spiked wooden armor was sufficient. It later turned out the whole "Turtle Ship" concept proved to be unnecessary since it was possible to attack Japanese fleet with the long-range cannons 1 km away and Japanese never even got the chance to approach within the range of their short-range cannons and rifles.

War vessels which rely critically on oar power are usually made with long narrow hulls (often with overhanging upper works) which allow for easier movement through the water.

This is exactly the reason Japanese could not win, because their ships were not structurally strong/stable enough to mount long-range cannons.

In the Western World the Mediterranean was the principle combat zone for such ships, from the triremes of ancient Greece to the galleys and galleasses of more modern times.

Koreans used V-shaped hull ships for at least 800 years before the coming of "flat bottom" hull battleships. Why? Because of cannons.