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Post by galacticchick on Apr 29, 2004 14:30:54 GMT -5
I was watching my tape of the rerun of Tuesday's JG and I was left w/a question. Is the Emperor "getting it on" with Yon-ro.
When YR and Lady Choi's Mini-me where talking she was happy that JG had probably made the wrong diagnosis. She said that it was like killing two birds w/one stone because not only would JG be punished by death, but the Queen would die which led me to wonder why Yon-ro is eager for the Queen to die.
One more thing--why was the Queen Mother mad at the Emperor? She was saying that he doesn't care for her...is this somehow connected w/Lady Choi?
I usually catched JG in the morning reruns so as you can tell I've missed a couple of episodes.
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Post by Choko on Apr 30, 2004 2:01:25 GMT -5
Do you remember one of the previous episodes in which Geum-young was ordered by Lady Choi to hide some kind of evil talisman in the royal kitchen, which was believed to change the sex of the queen's unborn baby? It makes you know that Choi family and Sir Oh are on the side of wanting the king to have no more legitimate heir to the throne except for the current crown prince. (Yes, they are crown prince's loyalists. ^^  As I said before in another thread, King Jung-jong had 3 queens and many concubines like Yeon-seng in his life. His beloved first queen is forcibly ousted by ministers for political reasons. His next queen died just after giving birth to a son who is now the crown prince. The young queen who is featured in this TV show is his third wife Queen Mun-jeong. (In the real, she was one of the most politically powerful queens in the history of Korean. ^^ Chosun dynasty's national law had given queen's sons priority to be a crown prince over other concubines' sons. Now, if the young queen has sons eligible for the king's legitimate heir, you can imagine what would happen in the future. (Fierce conflicts surrounding the throne. ^^ That's why the Chois and Sir Oh are keeping a sharper lookout for the queen's childbirth than others. Their political and economical power was based on the position of the current crown prince's quardian. More sons are unnecessary, they thought. (especially the queen's sons) |
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Post by Soju on Apr 30, 2004 13:08:37 GMT -5
Choko -
Please, please, please keep on posting all this information! So much that I am puzzled about in this show becomes crystal clear with your explanations.
In the Korean history book I have, this period has only a paragraph devoted to it, stating only that there were a lot of purges. Your details are most welcome!
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Post by galacticchick on Apr 30, 2004 13:17:47 GMT -5
Wow Choko, you sure know a lot about K-history. Thanks! ;D
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Post by TheBo on Apr 30, 2004 21:04:13 GMT -5
Thanks, Choko, I had forgotten that there was a "little prince." Mun-jeong, as she is played in this series, seems like a person who would end up with a lot of power. She's one of my favorite characters, wise and fair, just like you'd hope a queen would be.
By the way, I notice the courtiers seem to be calling the king "Chosun"--translated on-screen as Your Majesty. Am I hearing correctly, or are they saying "Jung-jong" (and my American ears are mishearing)? If they are calling him by just his family name, it seems to be without any honorifics--no "ssi" or anything. I notice the queen is called "Mamah" (Oma Mamah for the queen mother), while the court ladies are called "Mamanin," which seems like a lower level derivation.
Bo
PS - galacticchick, I was so tickled by your suggestion that the king would go after Young-ro Sourpuss-ssi. I hope his taste in women was not THAT miserable LOL.
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Post by Choko on May 2, 2004 14:56:26 GMT -5
King = "Wang", "Ju-sang", "Im-geum(-nim)", "Na-rat-nim" etc. Your Majesty, Your highness = "Jeon-ha"(king) "Mama"(queen) Courtiers are usually calling the king "Ju-sang Jeon-ha" or "Jeon-ha". I think that's exactly what you heard.  You can also hear the king's mother calling his son just "Ju-sang". In this case, "Jeon-ha" is omitted because her position is as high as the king, so it is unnecessary for her to treat him as her senior. ;D "Jung-jong" is the king's posthumous epithet which we Korean have always learned in every history books. Kings' names were always entitled by their successors after their death, so the courtiers on TV do not know the name "Jung-jong" of course. It is common, throughout ancient Asian countries, for kings to be named after their death. In their life time, people were calling them just "Your highness" or "Your Majesty". (such as "Ju-sang Jeon-ha", "Im-geum-nim", "Na-rat-nim" etc.) "Mama" was used for lower person to call their higher person within royal family or among palace ladies. For example... Oma Mama(mother) = when princes/princesses call their mother Aba Mama(father) = when princes/princesses call their father Halma Mama(Grandmother) Halba Mama(Grandfather) Jung-jeon Mama (Her Majesty) = when people call queen Dong-gung Mama or Se-ja Jeo-ha = When people call crown prince Mama-nim = When people call higher palace ladies |
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Post by jacques on May 2, 2004 22:32:51 GMT -5
Awesome crash-course on royal titles!  Thanks to Choko for enlightening this message board on the intricacies of addressing the Jeoson-era royal court. I myself had to learn it the hard way. Two years ago, I was watching Yeoin Cheonha religiously (without subtitles, mind you--the first time ever!) and it wasn't until 2/3 thru the series that I realized Chun-jong was a title for the Empress, not her proper name! (and so was Kyong-bin, Hee-bin, & Shee-bin). At that time, I was watching Dawn Of The Empire as well which was subtitled (that helped cross-reference some of the dialog ;D), and noticed interesting disparaties between Koryo & Jeoson royal protocols. 1. The royal family/court sat on chair and tables during Koryo. In Jeoson times, they had reverted to sitting on the ground. 2. The Emperor was addressed as Pee-ha during Koryo, and Jeonha (which I assumed, literally means "world") during Jeoson. Speaking of royal titles, when Lady Yi (one of Lady Han's loyal proteges and Jang-Geum's good friend) officially became the King's concubine, she gained the title of Soo-gong ma-ma? How does that relate in the royal court's scheme of things, i.e. how does she rank in relation to the other ladies? Fascinating, fascinating stuff!!!  |
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Post by Choko on May 3, 2004 5:03:36 GMT -5
<<<Spoilers ahead -- beware!!!>>> Our topic is deviating from the original title more and more, isn't it? > The royal family/court sat on chair and tables during Koryo. In Jeoson times, they had reverted to sitting on the ground. You're right. The difference of life style is related to the spread of "Ondol" in the late Koryo period. "Ondol" is Korea's unique traditional under-floor heating system. It's a kind of hypocaust to heat the floor called "Ondol" to make you feel comfortable and warm, especially on a cold winter day. Ondol system had totally changed Korean life style from sitting on chairs and tables to sitting and sleeping on a warm floor. > concubine's hierarchy I'd rather explain about palace lady's hierarchy as a whole. ^^ 9th~6th grade : Nain (Royal maid) 5th grade (lower) : Sang-gung (palace lady like Lady Han or Lady Choi) 5th grade (higher) : special Sang-gung, or Seung-eun Sang-gung If a palace lady or a maid have any sexual relationship with the king, she will promote to "special Sang-gung". If she bears a baby, she will rise in rank more and more. If she has no child at all? Well, you already saw how miserable the life of forgotten concubines is. 4th grade (lower) : Sug-won (Yeon-seng's pregnancy promoted her to Sug-won now) 4th grade (higher) : So-won (If she gives birth to a prince, she will rise in rank more and more) 3rd grade (lower) : Sug-yong 3rd grade (higher) : So-yong 2nd grade (lower) : Sug-i 2nd grade (higher) : So-i 1st grade (lower) : Gwi-in 1st grade (higher) : Bin (highest concubine, or prince's wife) the highest : Jung-jeon(Queen), Dae-bi(King's mother) Yeon-seng is now in the position of Sug-won, the lowest position. In this hierarchy, all kinds of decision-making are carried out by the queen. Even the king has no rights to intervene. Chosun's queens are like... king's political partner or companion rather than king's lovely wife. King and queen has to respect each other and can't invade each other's rights. (That's the difference between concubine and queen) However, medical women(female doctors) and King's daughters(Gong-ju) are not included in this category. They are entirely under King's control. (That's why Lady Choi can't give pressure on JG. Medical department is not in her line) Queen and Bin are usually selected from aristocrats. (Unlike Middle class women like JG and YS, they don't have to start from the lowest position) If you are interested in royal marriage, check this music video. It's a tale of Chosun's last empress "Myong-sung" assassinated by Japanese Samurais in 1895. (You will see the palace laides' hair style is quite different from that of JG's period, but the marriage ceremony is not that changed) Music video of "Lost Empire" (KBS historical drama "Myong-sung Hwang-hu") mms://musicv.bugs.co.kr/20030517bugsmusicdevpart1/kor/0O/mkor0O70496.asf |
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Post by JP Paulus on May 3, 2004 8:59:33 GMT -5
Choko, NOT EVERYONE has seen the episode you speak of (in regards to Yeun Seng's "new fortune" --- please be wary of that, and add "spoiler" in your message, so people can temporarily avoid it until they're ready to ready. i modified yours accordingly...you've got good stuff, but not all of us are ready to read it yet Thanks! |
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Post by jacques on May 3, 2004 14:02:16 GMT -5
<<<Spoilers ahead -- beware!!!>>> Our topic is deviating from the original title more and more, isn't it? > The royal family/court sat on chair and tables during Koryo. In Jeoson times, they had reverted to sitting on the ground. You're right. The difference of life style is related to the spread of "Ondol" in the late Koryo period. "Ondol" is Korea's unique traditional under-floor heating system. It's a kind of hypocaust to heat the floor called "Ondol" to make you feel comfortable and warm, especially on a cold winter day. Ondol system had totally changed Korean life style from sitting on chairs and tables to sitting and sleeping on a warm floor. > concubine's hierarchy I'd rather explain about palace lady's hierarchy as a whole. ^^ 9th~6th grade : Nain (Royal maid) 5th grade (lower) : Sang-gung (palace lady like Lady Han or Lady Choi) 5th grade (higher) : special Sang-gung, or Seung-eun Sang-gung If a palace lady or a maid have any sexual relationship with the king, she will promote to "special Sang-gung". If she bears a baby, she will rise in rank more and more. If she has no child at all? Well, you already saw how miserable the life of forgotten concubines is. 4th grade (lower) : Sug-won (Yeon-seng's pregnancy promoted her to Sug-won now) 4th grade (higher) : So-won (If she gives birth to a prince, she will rise in rank more and more) 3rd grade (lower) : Sug-yong 3rd grade (higher) : So-yong 2nd grade (lower) : Sug-i 2nd grade (higher) : So-i 1st grade (lower) : Gwi-in 1st grade (higher) : Bin (highest concubine, or prince's wife) the highest : Jung-jeon(Queen), Dae-bi(King's mother) Yeon-seng is now in the position of Sug-won, the lowest position. In this hierarchy, all kinds of decision-making are carried out by the queen. Even the king has no rights to intervene. Chosun's queens are like... king's political partner or companion rather than king's lovely wife. King and queen has to respect each other and can't invade each other's rights. (That's the difference between concubine and queen) However, medical women(female doctors) and King's daughters(Gong-ju) are not included in this category. They are entirely under King's control. (That's why Lady Choi can't give pressure on JG. Medical department is not in her line) Queen and Bin are usually selected from aristocrats. (Unlike Middle class women like JG and YS, they don't have to start from the lowest position) If you are interested in royal marriage, check this music video. It's a tale of Chosun's last empress "Myong-sung" assassinated by Japanese Samurais in 1895. (You will see the palace laides' hair style is quite different from that of JG's period, but the marriage ceremony is not that changed) Music video of "Lost Empire" (KBS historical drama "Myong-sung Hwang-hu") mms://musicv.bugs.co.kr/20030517bugsmusicdevpart1/kor/0O/mkor0O70496.asf AWESOME!!! AWESOME!!! AWESOME!!! Choko, you are truly the resident historical/cultural expert on this kbc message board!!! At last, many of the lingering questions I had having been a devotee of Korean historical drama (Wang Gun, Yeoin Cheonha, Dawn Of Empire, Age Of Warriors, and now Dae Janggeum) have been de-mystified for me. For that I am very grateful indeed!!! I previously posted a similar query on the AOW board about the royal titles/imperial household, but never got a satisfactory answer (guess nobody there was as knowledgeable as you!). BTW, I checked out the music video link for The Lost Empire. Moved me to tears!  I had heard about The Last Empress/Myong-Sung Wang-hu series, but unfortunately our local Korean station decided not to air it for some reason. I also heard about the musical that toured the US mainland and Europe. Hope to some day catch either one of these performances of The Last Empress. |
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Post by Choko on May 4, 2004 2:18:01 GMT -5
Thanks for your favor, JP Paulus.
But I thought that's not spoilers at all.
Yeon-seng's case is a kind of example for your easy understanding.
I mean, that's not the facts but "If...". ^^;
It remains to be seen what her fortune will be in the future.
Anyway, Paulus, Thanks for your modification, and I need your help again.
I made another mistake in "New to Korean History" thread.
But, as a guest, I can't eliminate or modify something in this board.
I'm so sorry. Could you eliminate the writing instead of me? (and also this one)
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Post by TheBo on May 4, 2004 10:33:03 GMT -5
SPOILER WARNING - YOU MIGHT CONSIDER THIS A SPOILER IF YOU'RE STRICT, SO **DON'T** READ IT IF THAT'S THE CASE.
BOThanks for your favor, JP Paulus. But I thought that's not spoilers at all. Yeon-seng's case is a kind of example for your easy understanding. Choko, FYI, the reason your post was a spoiler is that in Chicago, all we know is that she was visited by the king once and is now a dismal failure. Where are you watching this series? We are on episode #36, I believe. Bo
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Post by bipbip on Mar 7, 2011 17:59:33 GMT -5
" The royal family/court sat on chair and tables during Koryo. In Jeoson times, they had reverted to sitting on the ground." You're right. The difference of life style is related to the spread of "Ondol" in the late Koryo period. "Ondol" is Korea's unique traditional under-floor heating system. It's a kind of hypocaust to heat the floor called "Ondol" to make you feel comfortable and warm, especially on a cold winter day. Ondol system had totally changed Korean life style from sitting on chairs and tables to sitting and sleeping on a warm floor. This is an old post published 7 years ago, but I have to reply to it because, in my opinion, it is misleading. The change in habits isn't due to floor heating, that existed (not everywhere of course!) even before the Jeoseon period. The explanation for this change is the rise of Mongolian-Chinese Yuan Dinasty, that made Goryeo its vassal state. Everbody knows that the Yuan dinasty had a nomadic background, and sitting on the ground (or on pillows) was usual for them. This habit gain ground when they adopted Buddhism as state religion. How are all Buddha statues? Yes, you are right: they show Buddha sitting on the ground in a lotus position. Got it? |
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Thanks to Choko for enlightening this message board on the intricacies of addressing the Jeoson-era royal court. I myself had to learn it the hard way. Two years ago, I was watching Yeoin Cheonha religiously (without subtitles, mind you--the first time ever!) and it wasn't until 2/3 thru the series that I realized Chun-jong was a title for the Empress, not her proper name! (and so was Kyong-bin, Hee-bin, & Shee-bin). At that time, I was watching Dawn Of The Empire as well which was subtitled (that helped cross-reference some of the dialog ;D), and noticed interesting disparaties between Koryo & Jeoson royal protocols.
I had heard about The Last Empress/Myong-Sung Wang-hu series, but unfortunately our local Korean station decided not to air it for some reason. I also heard about the musical that toured the US mainland and Europe. Hope to some day catch either one of these performances of The Last Empress.