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Post by Soju on Jan 3, 2004 0:06:09 GMT -5
There was a recent dust-up on the SoCal Drama Board, involving a couple of regular contributors here, that brought up the issue of whether those not raised in Asian culture can fully understand the behavior of the characters. Is "Mean Granny" really mean, or is Kwe-boon merely acting in a way that would be expected of a woman of her generation in Korea?
Are those of us who are Non-Asian totally wrong in projecting our values on these characters? Or are there behavioral absolutes that transend culture, such as 'meanness'?
So often in K-dramas, we see characters following paths they are unhappy with, which pragmatically would seem to be not in their own interest, just because someone they must defer to says so. I always try to understand where they're coming from, since i think understanding other cultures helps me understand my own, but, often, I just can't see it. I read of a drama where a woman married her rapist, because everyone said it was the best thing to do. I can only say "HUH?????" to this. I just can't see it.
So, if we're not raised in a Confucian society, can we really understand these shows? How qualified are we to discuss charaters' actions? I like to think we are, and we can.
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Post by mikey on Jan 4, 2004 16:35:21 GMT -5
“Dust-up” hardly begins to describe things on the SoCal drama boards. As someone who was a central player in that miserable conflict, I’m perhaps not surprised that nobody’s yet responded to your question. Almost overnight, it turned our fun and friendly California board into a grim and ugly place that nobody even wants to visit any more.
I must confess my part in the melee. I’m usually slow to get riled up, but once I am I can get really sarcastic. Not very mature, and I can’t say that I’m terribly proud of myself – but then, I wasn’t exactly the only attack dog on the scene, either.
The real lesson to learn from this disaster is the essential role of the board moderators. My genuine guilt – and shame – in all this was my hesitation to call in the moderators to help contain things before it all got out of hand. By the time the moderators discovered the chaos over in K-drama land, it was too late to contain it without some real bloodshed (the moderators had been focused on the Japanese drama boards, assuming that the Korean drama fans could police themselves – bad idea, as it turns out). It will be a long, long while, I think, before all the nice, non-confrontational kind of people (who understandably shy away from such situations) cautiously begin to ease their way back into things, now that – I hope – the board is beginning to recover.
MODERATORS: you have the authority, so don’t feel bad about using it. Chastise nasty-natured postings without hesitation (I’ve seen this done already – much appreciated!). Ruthlessly delete postings if things continue. Maintain control of your boards no matter what because once you lose it, it’s such a dreadful job trying to piece everything back together again.
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Post by HumbleStudent on Jan 4, 2004 20:14:40 GMT -5
Speaking as an Anglo viewer without much experience with Korean culture (btw it's probably a mistake to talk about 'Asian culture' because I suspect that there are sharp differences among the dominant cultures of the different Asian nationalities), I can see both sides of the argument. I believe it probably IS impossible for us to "fully" understand what these characters are up to unless we actually grew up as South Koreans.
On the other hand, I think that it's possible to improve our level of understanding by listening carefully and respectfully to what the characters and the Korean viewers and other participants in this dialogue are trying to tell us. Michael must believe that there is SOME possibility for us to understand what is going on, or why would he be taking the trouble to write subtitles? (And of course kbs.co.kr now has its own English-language pages too.)
The element of surprise that Soju refers to - the moment when, for example, some character does something that just leaves you completely baffled - is one of the real thrills of global-village culture in my opinion. Those are the moments that I learn from. I always feel some degree of bafflement when watching Korean dramas, maybe less than I did six months ago, but always some. I don't think this stops me from sharing opinions about it, as long as I am mentally prepared for the possibility that I might find out that I've just completely missed the point. The Eurocentric moment to beware of is the moment when we say "Oh, I understand it all now!"
Another part of the interest of dramas like OMR, or, perhaps even more so, YH, is that they are actually portraying cultural conflict WITHIN Korean society, and are actually participants in the ongoing struggle within that society over what "Korean culture" should be. The writers and producers of YH for example were by no means neutral on the family register issue, for instance, and in OMR the patriarchy came in for some criticism when it looked like Yu-Kyung's ex-husband was going to haul her daughter off to the US. I suppose they would have to be called part of the "liberal Korean media" at least on these social issues. And I don't think they expect us all to be neutral about Grandman Han in OMR, or Grandma Sohn in her obstructive phase in YH.
At the same time, in YH, the Yoon family's traditional family values were always portrayed in positive contrast with crass commercialism, greed, individualism, etc. So it's not "traditional vs. modern", I don't think, much less "outdated taboos vs. enlightment" or "Korean culture vs. Western culture". It's more like, "which elements of our traditions are valuable and worth preserving, and make us a better society, and which elements are oppressive and should be discarded?" This is a question that EVERY culture and subculture faces, of course, and always has faced.
I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else or not, but anyway.....
HS
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Post by jenny on Jan 4, 2004 23:44:28 GMT -5
If mean grandma is the norm for a Korean woman of her generation, then is OMR a reality show? Where is the entertainment value for Koreans then? I have to admit, I am pretty wound up after reading the postings on the SoCal board - that person was NUTS! Mikey, you in no way acted immature - you were very articulate in the face of an irrational person. All I have to say is, you and nsheldon are more than welcome to stay here and never return to that board! How frustrating that mess looked! Back to mean grandma, I don't think us non-Asians are misunderstanding her. The Korean characters in the drama realize she's mean, too! I think an example of non-Koreans misunderstanding a Korean character would be the way we reacted to Grandma Sohn in YH. She seemed so stubborn to us, and I'm sure vewiers in and from Korea felt that way to some extent, but her case is where you might need a better understanding of the culture. You don't need to be Korean to realize that mean granny is just plain nasty! Boy, am I glad that SoCal guy doesn't post here! Yikes!!!
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Post by nsheldon on Jan 5, 2004 8:51:42 GMT -5
I couldn't believe the outbursts of anger that came from the person on the Kdrama board in CA. I just quit reading anything that person wrote. I didn't know how else to handle it. I certainly was no match with words. I relied on Mikey for that (thanks Mikey). I suppose if no one responds to that person then we won't get sucked in to that level of immaturity. At least I hope that is the case. RE mean grandma.... I know that on YH the grandma seemed mean at first. But we all knew where she was really coming from. She was trying to stop future heartache by Ja young marrying her grandson (due to her having a child already). That was understandable. But this grandma is being true to her dead 'daughter in law'... And, her son has now been married to her new daughter in law for many many years. It is time to get over it. She should be happy for her son's marriage if only because it produced her beloved granddaughter. Her meaness towards her daughter in law is making the entire family unhappy, including herself. I'd like to see Hyun kyu's father stick up for his wife & stepson some time....
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Post by mikey on Jan 5, 2004 12:05:24 GMT -5
I do think HumbleStudent has a good point about this generic “Asian Culture” thing. That’s the term we all got dragged into using on the California board, but that’s about as logical as talking about a generic “European Culture” – as if the French and the British have ever agreed on anything (aside from fighting the Germans) in the past 100 years.
I think it’s impossible for anyone to really understand *every* aspect of a particular culture unless they actually grow up in it. Outsiders, I think, can grasp most of the larger issues pretty well, but those innumerable “finer points” of any particular culture . . . well, it would take a lifetime to learn all those. And yes, the “finer points” of Korean culture are not necessarily going to be the same as those of a Japanese or a Vietnamese culture.
I agree with Jenny – we outsiders may not be in a position to judge anything from our cultural vantagepoint, but we can judge things by how the other characters in the drama react to a situation. We Americans may be culturally biased – but they’re not going to be.
The big issues in this discussion seem to be first: is “grandmother” mean, and second: is her behavior what’s normal and expected in a typical Korean household? These two related issues got blurred in the California melee, but I think they need to be discussed separately.
Go back to OMR episode #1 (I think it was episode #1) where we all saw grandmother handing daughter-in-law the first of what was to be many severe tongue-lashings. We Americans were all stunned at the viciousness (from our view) of her attack. But suppose daughter-in-law had then headed for the kitchen, shrugged her shoulders, and then went on with her household duties as if this was normal grandmother behavior – no big deal. From that, I would have concluded something like, “Wow, she sure seemed mean to that daughter-in-law – but I guess in Korea that’s just the way things are. The daughter-in-law sure didn’t seem too upset about it.”
But, that’s not what we saw. Daughter-in-law wilted before grandmother like a cut flower in the August sun. And when she retired to the kitchen, her sister blurted out that she wishes grandmother would just hurry up and die! This is pretty telling that the characters around grandmother consider her behavior mean – so I accept this as well (however, my Japanese “debate partner” on the California board absolutely insisted that grandmother was *not* mean, and that I was arrogantly exhibiting my abysmal ignorance of Asian society).
The second issue: is grandmother’s behavior normal in a Korean society? Well, of course, there’s no one “normal,” but there’s a “normal range,” and grandmother’s behavior does seem to be within Korea’s normal range. She hasn’t done anything to get arrested for; there’s nothing illegal about screaming at one’s daughter-in-law. Indeed, our own American culture is rife with stories about bad mothers-in-law – so this is hardly something exclusive to Korean culture (the big difference here might be that, in America, a daughter-in-law can scream right back if she’s so inclined – something that’s just not done in Korea. So, I think a Korean daughter-in-law does have a much bigger cross to bear than does her American counterpart).
A better question might be: is grandmother’s behavior “typical;” are most Korean households like that? I don’t know for sure, but from what I’ve seen of Korean dramas, I think this grandmother is way on the fringe of normal behavior. I don’t think every Korean household is like that (my Japanese “debate partner” on the California board also rather vigorously disagreed with me on that point).
I think, however, that if you were to ask the typical Korean about “grandmother,” they’re response might be something like “Yeah, that grandmother is really something! But, you know, I’ve seen a few grandmothers that were just like her, too . . .”
And, I think, if you were to ask that typical Korean viewer if they’d want their daughter marrying into the Oh household (knowing in advance that grandmother will be treating their daughter exactly the way she treats her daughter-in-law) I’d think that most Korean parents would say, “Uh, I don’t think so . . .”
But, I could be way off on all this. As I was rather sternly told on the California board, I’m just another arrogant, ignorant American who knows nothing about Asian culture, right?
While I freely admit my general ignorance of Asian/Korean culture, this is the best analysis I can come up with. I’d love to hear a (polite) critique of my analysis by any ethnic Koreans reading this. And, if I’ve got it all wrong, I’ll willingly eat crow.
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Post by Betz in Philly on Jan 5, 2004 12:16:04 GMT -5
Happy New Year to Chicago Fans ;D nsheldon wrote "I certainly was no match with words. I relied on Mikey for that (thanks Mikey)." Yes, Mikey is indeed 'The Man With The Words' Betz
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Post by TheBo on Jan 5, 2004 12:35:42 GMT -5
Both Humble Student and Mikey bring up some excellent points about cultural understanding. However, I think we can go even further and say that even within a "culture"--if by that, we mean a country--manners are not homogenic. What might be considered perfectly acceptable in New York City could be seen as insufferably rude in Charleston. I seem to remember in "Tender Hearts" (if I have the correct show) the young man from North Korea was totally shocked by all the goings on between men and women--he seemed to think the fellow who had an affair on his wife should be arrested, when no one else indicated such thoughts. (I know North K and South K are separate countries, but surely they are as culturally similar as New York and South Carolina.) I agree that Mean Granny's behavior can only really be judged by the reaction of those around her, and the people around her (except for Mal-Bong) seem to find it--well--wanting. The "mean grandma" in Who's My Love was trying to keep her household in order and get good wives for her grandsons; the "mean grandma" in Yellow Handkerchief was trying to keep from happening what actually did happen. This Mean Grandma seems to be acting out of spite, and everyone she knows seems to acknowledge that.
Further, as to cultural differences, you only have to look to Min-Joo's family versus Ja-Young's on YH. There was a world of difference between family cultures there, which I don't think I need to enumerate. We are all culturally different. We are all trying, here, to understand those differences. I don't think we need to apologize for that.
Bo
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Post by Lucy on Jan 5, 2004 12:54:49 GMT -5
Hey, Bo, are you a Bjork fan by any chance? I wondered because of your use of the word "homogenic," which was her album title but not, I think, an actual word (should be "homogeneous").
Let me rush to point out that I'm not posting that to correct you but to take the opportunity to work in a Bjork reference! :-)
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Post by Lucy on Jan 5, 2004 12:56:24 GMT -5
P.S. That first smiley in my message was a mistake. It came up automatically when I typed in the close-quotes and a close-parenthesis. I am definitely against the excessive use of smileys!
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Post by TheBo on Jan 5, 2004 13:04:02 GMT -5
Hey, Bo, are you a Bjork fan by any chance? I wondered because of your use of the word "homogenic," which was her album title but not, I think, an actual word (should be "homogeneous"). OOOh, you caught me! And I'm usually such a persnick. (Look that up in your Funk & Wagnal's.) I was just so caught up in answering the post. No, I'm not a Bjork "fan" although my boyfriend is. I don't hate her. Bo
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Post by Soju on Jan 5, 2004 21:57:12 GMT -5
I think just about all of us agree that Kwe-boon is mean. I think the important part of the story is how the other characters react to her. Filial piety is one of the cardinal virtues in Confucian society, but it looks like In-hwan is going to defy his mother to her face. This would be a much more major thing than it would be in a US show.
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Post by galacticchick on Jan 6, 2004 12:56:40 GMT -5
Yeah, no matter how or where in the world you look at it, she is mean and she knows it. Although she is very capable of being sweet, like w/Eunji and Malbong, she is down right evil her daughter-in-law, MJ (although this is generally behind his back, remember how civil they were to each other when he bowed to her as he was leaving home?) and his aunt. Remember that salty/guilty look on her face when she was having another one of her *breakdowns* and her daughter-in-law offered to massage her legs. Well when HK came in and grabbed her, she nearly threw him across the room because she thought it was her daughter-in-law, HK was surprised and mean grandma was caught in the act.
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Post by mikey on Jan 6, 2004 16:10:49 GMT -5
TheBo makes a good point about the cultural differences between rough-edged New York City and genteel Charleston, but for a real example of American cultural diversity, all you stodgy, hard-working Midwesterners should come to Los Angeles and take a stroll down Hollywood Boulevard some Saturday night. Talk about culture shock! You’ll return to Illinois convinced that California is one giant insane asylum!
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Post by TheBoUnlogged on Jan 6, 2004 16:14:04 GMT -5
...for a real example of American cultural diversity, all you stodgy, hard-working Midwesterners should come to Los Angeles and take a stroll down Hollywood Boulevard some Saturday night. Talk about culture shock! You’ll return to Illinois convinced that California is one giant insane asylum! Did that. I can attest. However--stodgy, hard-working Midwesterners? Really, Mikey. Bo
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