Episodes 81 and 82

[Eowyn]

SPOILERS if haven't seen these episodes:



I wanted to say that I thought Episodes 81 and 82 were two of the best I have ever seen! There was General Choi's sacrifice of his little brother: before I could decide if I thought he would go through with it, it was done! Ui-min's reaction was complete anguish (the sound of his voice when he asks, "General Choi, why did you kill your brother?").

There was also a scene with Soran (dressed beautifully) sent as a messenger to Chief Huh to request him to come see Kyung Dae-seung. As she goes to leave (with her back toward him), Chief Huh delicately places his hand to the side of her neck (remember he always used to stare at her) and asks her why she works for worthless Kyung Dae-seung when she could have everything she wants with himself and that it was himself who had saved her life (by not slaying her in her village he had ordered destroyed). She remarks that it was not he, but Kyung Dae-seung who saved her life, and she vows her revenge against Chief Huh.

Then of course, the showdown at the banquet table between Kyung Dae-seung and Chief Huh ("yes, I poisoned the wine to kill you"); Kyung declaring previously that he would offer up Huh's head on an alter; Soran's sword performance at the banquet; the systematic elimination of Huh's convoys; Lt. Kim's great grief and rage in killing his old friend, Chief Kim; the Dobang infiltrating the convoys; Kyung's misery at the death of his old friend, Chief Huh; giving Huh the sword to kill himself; Huh declaring that though he will be in hell, he will look to Kyung to now realize the great cause (it IS unfortunate that they could not work together); Lt. Kim's comment that even friendship cannot be put before the cause; also in those episodes, I think, was the snubbing of Kyung by the princess: seeing him on the grounds, she introduces him to her fiance saying he killed the Chungs, but when the fiance bows his head, she's tells him he doesn't need to for a common soldier, that soldiers only deal in blood and have hearts of stone! Kyung bows his head and they all move on.

Sorry this is so long, but these episodes were really good, and I had to talk about them!

[Eowyn]

P.S. I MESSED UP - THOSE SMILEY'S WEREN'T MEANT TO BE IN MY LAST POST! HOW SILLY THEY LOOK! SORRY!

[chung kyun]

i loved it when kyung and chief huh were laughing like crazy.i can't wait to see what happens on saturday. ;D
;D

[rag742]

What i can't understand how Lt Huh with 30 people can intimidate the Army chief of staff with thousands of warrior. It is like Arafat scaring President Bush to do what arafat wants. I find this totally unbelievable.

[Frank Parker]

Actually, it's Captain Huh. And in response to your query, the Imperial Convoys are the elite of the Koyro military, and no matter how small they are, they fight and fight to the death.

Plus, the Superior General has to realize that since Huh was with Kyung Dae Seung and they both destroyed the Chungs, the people, if incited, would revolt and possibly bring down the Dynasty. It is like when a general of the U.S. becomes a President... since his popular support with the public is so high, he takes over.

[Maalii]

rag742 said:

What i can't understand how Lt Huh with 30 people can intimidate the Army chief of staff with thousands of warrior. It is like Arafat scaring President Bush to do what arafat wants. I find this totally unbelievable.

I too am a bit baffled here. The Imperial Convoys are indeed elite troops and have the potential of wreaking havoc as they are stationed in and around the palace, but in doesn't seem as control of the Convoys alone would put the empire in one's hands.

Ui Bang rose to dominance as the Chief Convoy, but he had the help of his sworn brothers Yi Ko and Che Won as well as a formidable captain in Ui Min and a pretty good feel for power politics. When the Chungs dominated they had a very broad power base owing mostly to Chung Jung Bu's years of skillful alliance building, particularly with those alienated by Ui Bang.

In contrast, Huh Seung had no base of support outside of the Convoys and no political gamesmanship. So I also think the plot and writing requires a bit too much of a leap of faith for the audience here. Also curious is how Du Kyung Seung, a formidable warrior equal to the very best, had the nerve to speak up against the Chungs at the height of their power, and to challenge Ui Min, yet cowered like a lamb in Huh Seung's presence. This does not seem consistent with the development of his character in the show.

[FrederickII]

Guest-Maalii said:

I too am a bit baffled here. The Imperial Convoys are indeed elite troops and have the potential of wreaking havoc as they are stationed in and around the palace, but in doesn't seem as control of the Convoys alone would put the empire in one's hands.

We have to remember that imperial troops are not allowed in the palace and there were likely hundreds of convoys perhaps thousands.

Ui Bang rose to dominance as the Chief Convoy, but he had the help of his sworn brothers Yi Ko and Che Won as well as a formidable captain in Ui Min and a pretty good feel for power politics. When the Chungs dominated they had a very broad power base owing mostly to Chung Jung Bu's years of skillful alliance building, particularly with those alienated by Ui Bang.

I don’t agree. Huh Sung came under Kyun;s wing and pretended to be with him. He did anything to prove his so called loyalty to the Chung clan. Once Huh had control of the palace the Central committee was at his mercy. Plus he obviously lied to Dae Sung whom he had known was not a brutal killer, and would simply ignore his pledge to resign.

In contrast, Huh Seung had no base of support outside of the Convoys and no political gamesmanship. So I also think the plot and writing requires a bit too much of a leap of faith for the audience here. Also curious is how Du Kyung Seung, a formidable warrior equal to the very best, had the nerve to speak up against the Chungs at the height of their power, and to challenge Ui Min, yet cowered like a lamb in Huh Seung's presence. This does not seem consistent with the development of his character in the show.

He had Kyung Dae Sung who was the head of a clan , which even during the reign of the Chungs was a prominent clan. Once Kyung left his post he controlled the convoys virtually alone.


Huh Sung in my opinion ranks with the Empress Dowager in the area of political skill. He knew where the true power lie in each move he made, from Kyun Chung, to Kyung Dae Sung to the Crown Prince. He had the crown price by the throat, as his body guard Huh Sung frightened the man. He planted fear into the Crown Prince quite well, to keep him from informing the emperor of his plot to overthrow the emperor and place the Prince on the thrown. If Huh Sung placed the Crown prince on the throne he would have had defacto control over the empire and the Convoys which would pacify the military. Overall I think Huh Sung was one of the smartest characters on the show. He knew which way the wind was blowing every time and drifted along.

[Maalii]

Frederick, you bring up some very good points, but I still think that, at least as framed in the show, Huh Seung had a lot less leverage than the Chungs or Ui Bang. I am not convinced, for example, that the Crown Prince had cause to be as intimidated by Huh as other Royals (Emperor, and Empress Dowager) were intimidated by the Chungs and Ui Bang. Again, Ui Bang and the Chungs had very broad power bases during the height of their power and these power bases were not formed solely by direct threat of arms. These former strongmen both built a large system of patronage and dependence, such that many warriors and ministers had much to gain, and had gained much, by supporting them. While Huh acted in concert with Dae Seung to overthrow the Chungs, he made it clear to all that he was acting on his own when he unleashed his own reign of terror--thus his opponents knew that Huh did not have Dae Seung's backing.

I think the clue to what seems to me to be a bit of a logic glitch here is provided by the narration, that implies that Kyung Dae Seung was quite a bit more aggressive than portrayed in the drama. The narration stated that it was Dae Seung who arranged General Oh's assasination (at his cousin's behest) rather than Huh acting on his own to make others distrust Dae Seung, as portrayed in the drama. I think what this tells us is that (in actual history) Dae Seung and Huh probably acted much more closely together in much of the actions during and following the overthrow of the Chungs, including the carrying out of the various purges. My guess is that in the actual history, at some point Huh's actions later became either embarassing to Dae Seung or outright threatened him, hence his decision to eliminate him. I think the problem for the writers came in trying to maintain Dae Seung's profile for the drama of using violence only when absolutely necessary. In order to do this, they had to separate many of the largely aggressive acts and place them in the hands of Huh who was portrayed as doing them on his own rather than at Dae Seung's bidding. The problem for me, is that the court and military show a level of fear as if they are indeed facing Dae Seung and Huh in concert whereas it is made clear in the drama plot that they are not.

[Chung Kyun]

yes by far yi ui-bang and the chungs had the most power.i think chief huh could had been stop easly i don't care how elite his army was.the central committee has thousands of fighters as you see. when they are fighting yi ui-min army.sorry if some people havn't been up to that.kyung dae seung stoped him only with 100 men. that tells you that the central committe could had crush him.i guess its the leaders fault that they are so weak and scared of any person that kills the person who had power.yes maalli your right the narrater always says things diffrent from what the drama shows.i guess kyung dae seung wasn't as good as the drama shows him.i dont think du was scared of chief huh.i think du once screamed and just left when huh was saying something or maybe just im geting confused with all the times he has done that lol.i think du would had beat huh,in a fight.
im just waiting for next saturday to see aow.

[FrederickII]

Guest-Maalii said:

Frederick, you bring up some very good points, but I still think that, at least as framed in the show, Huh Seung had a lot less leverage than the Chungs or Ui Bang. I am not convinced, for example, that the Crown Prince had cause to be as intimidated by Huh as other Royals (Emperor, and Empress Dowager) were intimidated by the Chungs and Ui Bang. Again, Ui Bang and the Chungs had very broad power bases during the height of their power and these power bases were not formed solely by direct threat of arms. These former strongmen both built a large system of patronage and dependence, such that many warriors and ministers had much to gain, and had gained much, by supporting them. While Huh acted in concert with Dae Seung to overthrow the Chungs, he made it clear to all that he was acting on his own when he unleashed his own reign of terror--thus his opponents knew that Huh did not have Dae Seung's backing.

I must be honest, I didn’t actually watch the show until the first emperor was deposed so I am unsure how the Chungs and Ui-Bang built their power.

However, It was the episode before Huh Sung was forced to kill him self that he threatened the Crown Prince. It was after Kyung left the crown prince, Huh Sung drew his sword and handed it to the crown prince and asked him to strike him down if he doubted his loyalty. The Crown Prince declined and stated that he didn’t doubt Huh Sung's loyalty and asked him to not depose the emperor. Huh's reply was "I cant", he also told the crown prince that if he informed the emperor both of them would die; "we're on the same boat your majesty" I believe was his final comment to the crown prince. And he wouldn’t have been inaccurate. He did control the convoys even as the captain of the Crown Prince’s guard


As for the central comittee, I really cant understand why hey were afraid of the convoys. I think there is a plausible explanation for this but I am not exactly sure what it is. It could be that the central committee always met in the palace which was always under the guard of the imperial convoys. They may have been afraid to use the army because or a morale issue with the common solider.

I think the clue to what seems to me to be a bit of a logic glitch here is provided by the narration, that implies that Kyung Dae Seung was quite a bit more aggressive than portrayed in the drama. The narration stated that it was Dae Seung who arranged General Oh's assasination (at his cousin's behest) rather than Huh acting on his own to make others distrust Dae Seung, as portrayed in the drama. I think what this tells us is that (in actual history) Dae Seung and Huh probably acted much more closely together in much of the actions during and following the overthrow of the Chungs, including the carrying out of the various purges. My guess is that in the actual history, at some point Huh's actions later became either embarassing to Dae Seung or outright threatened him, hence his decision to eliminate him. I think the problem for the writers came in trying to maintain Dae Seung's profile for the drama of using violence only when absolutely necessary. In order to do this, they had to separate many of the largely aggressive acts and place them in the hands of Huh who was portrayed as doing them on his own rather than at Dae Seung's bidding. The problem for me, is that the court and military show a level of fear as if they are indeed facing Dae Seung and Huh in concert whereas it is made clear in the drama plot that they are not.

I agree %100, I am more than willing to bet Kyung was just as ruthless as Yi Ui-Bang but more cautious and hesitant. This drama has not been entirely accurate. I am not sure if Yi Ui Min killed the deposed emperor, but I know it was not under Ui-Bangs order but rather Chung Jung Bu's order. But I suppose it's ok for the entertainment value so long as they separate fact from fiction.

[Knov1]

What you have to understand is that the producer(s) and writer(s) may have one or two sentences of history about a certain event to work with and then they have to create the story about that event to fill 6-8 episodes (maybe even more). Some events aren't well documented so the producer(s) and writer(s) have to fill in a lot of gaps themselves.

That's why some things aren't very accurate and there tend to be inconsistencies from time to time.

[guess 007]

hel all,

Just to add to knov1 point, during this period, most historical facts are recorded by imperial scholars/scribes. Unfortunately during Age of Warriors, many of the civil servants, including scholars and historians, are probably murdered. Several events that led to the slaughter of these scholars:

- 1170 when the rebelion broke. Hundreds of civil officers and one of them emperor's scribe (see episode 1) are slaugthered

- A year later, initiated by General Che Won (Big beardede guy, Ui Bang's brother). He hold Ui Bang hostage and send a detachment to the imperial city and slaughter more civil officers

- Few years later, initiated by Ui Bang. There were a scene when one of Ui Bang's men pushing carts full of civil officers to the woods and later they all stabbed by spears.

- Again, when Chung Ju Bu raise to power. He killed all scholars that are related to Ui Bang

- Again, by Huh Seung, he killed military and civil officers that has tie to Chung ju bu. (THanks to Minister Moon, who talk to the emperor, most of them are spared)

Probably there are more.

Moreover, most of the leaders of the military (Ui Bang, Chung Ju BU) are not an educated men. Well, maybe except for Kyung Tae Sung. Some are mentioned to be illiterate (Yi Ui Min, Huh Seung).

Well, my conclusion is that this period is probably not well recorded, since the people who do it were dead. And the political is changing too quickly that very few facts are recorded. Also, uneducated men who holds power are probably not too smart to keep records of their doings.

He he he, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong

[Eowyn]

Also, I have read in Edward J. Shultz's book Generals and Scholars that Koryo's history was written by Confucian scholars during the Chosun era using info that had been handed down. They depicted the age of warriors as a time of rebellion, corruption, and of overall failure. Part of the reason they did so was to legitimize their own regime.

[Chung Kyun]

yeah the choson era use to call the koryo era as a barbarian way of life.
once the narrater said that,the choson era was built from desendents of yi ui-bang younger brother.i think thats why its the yi dynasty.