yobo
Junior Addict
Posts: 205
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Post by yobo on Aug 2, 2003 15:43:05 GMT -5
One of my favorite discoveries in my foray into things Korean, and some of you can relate, is their system of writing. The consonants are easy enough, the vowels are tough to remember, and the dipthongs are for only the more diligent. Anyway, I like it much better than Japanese writing (which I've also studied), or Chinese. It's really fairly ingenious, tho seemingly not too well-suited for modern technological applications. I remember reading once that the advent of typewriters presented a huge problem for this writing system. How do you get a typewriter to put the first letter on top, the second letter at the right or below, and any third letter on the bottom? I never did find out how the problem was solved. Anyone know? Also, I have always wondered what kind of numerical system(s) they had in East Asia before they all adopted Arabic numerals. Must have been too complicated to hold onto. When you think about it, in this age of electronic displays, etc. , we're just plain lucky that all Arabic numerals can be represented by only 7 segments. For instance, if A or X or most other letters were numerals, new segments would have to be added to represent them (diagonals, etc.) Any answers or thoughts would be welcome!
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Post by mikey on Aug 2, 2003 18:53:08 GMT -5
Yobo – If you’ve studied some Japanese, then you probably already know a thing or two about Chinese numbers. Still, here’s what little I can add:
As I recall (it’s been a while . . .) Chinese numerals (which, of course, were also used in Korea and Japan) were pretty straightforward. There were specific Chinese characters for 1-9, plus characters for 10, 100, 1000, etc. Numerals 1, 2, and 3 were easy (one horizontal line, two horizontal lines, and three horizontal lines, kind of like Roman numerals flipped on their sides) but the characters for the numerals 4-10 didn’t seem to have any rhyme or reason for their appearance.
The Chinese numerical system didn’t have “place-holders” (I think that’s the proper term) so to write the number “24” using Chinese characters, they’d effectively write it as “2 10 4” or something like that.
I guess it was the introduction of the “zero” that made Arabic numerals unique. It made the whole numbering system much simpler and more logical. In Europe, Arabic numerals pretty much wiped out Roman numerals, but I’ve noticed that Asians (more tradition-bound than Europeans, perhaps) still frequently use Chinese numerals, especially when they want to be creative or artsy. In Asian business or commerce, though, Arabic numerals are now almost always used.
I’m just a babe in the woods when it comes to Chinese writing, though. If I got something wrong, everybody please feel free to set me straight -- Mikey
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Post by Soju on Aug 2, 2003 20:47:40 GMT -5
Yeah. those vowels are tough. The only one I can cosistantly remember is 'i', or do you spell it 'ee'. Some written languages, such as Assyrian, don't even have vowels; you're supposed to figure it out from context.
I dowloaded a Hangul font a while back (I don't recall from where), which had a couple versions of each glyph, with differing placement within the character space, so that you could construct the syllable blocks. This font was several years old (and not very attractive), and came with no instructions. Since I am still at the struggling stage with Hangul, I find it hard to note down my own obsevations of how it works ("this key puts a backspaced 'eu' glyph in the upper right").
Modern Hangul fonts undoutedly use Unicode, and a Korean Input Method. If anyone could tell me how to get a Korean Input Method Editor running on the USA version of Widows 98, I would sure be grateful. Of course, it's not like I could write anything other than "Hello" and such, but it still would be cool.
Next time a character types something into a computer, note how the syllable block is built up, out of one or maybe several keystrokes, sometimes changing entirely, since it "guesses" what the desired syllable is from context(?).
Speaking of 'Arabic' numerals, Arabic letterforms are also computer unfriendly, as they can change shape, depending on their position in a word.
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yobo
Junior Addict
Posts: 205
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Post by yobo on Aug 3, 2003 11:59:32 GMT -5
Mikey, I said I've studied Japanese, not that I was any good at it! Heck, I'm limited enough in my knowledge of English. Seriously, I've never heard anything about ancient Chinese numerals. I figured they were long-forgotten. I've learned something here, and maybe someone else has, too. Domo arigato. ;D Soju, it sounds like the solution is just as complicated as the problem. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, and good luck finding a way to familiarize your computer with Hangul characters.  ) |
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Post by ArdenJoy on Aug 4, 2003 13:54:01 GMT -5
 Mikey explained the asian numbering system well (I've been studying Japanese for three years, so I'm all too familiar with it). It's really quite different from the numbering system we know, especially when you get higher up. Anyways, I found a page that lists all the numbers in Japanese kanji (which I believe are the same in Chinese?) in case anyone is interested. There's also a brief explination of the numbering system... www.geocities.com/japanime_2/japanese_webpage_kanji_numbers1.htm
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yobo
Junior Addict
Posts: 205
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Post by yobo on Aug 4, 2003 15:44:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the interesting link, AJ. I wasn't able to view the kanji numerals, though. Only different configurations of squares. Good luck with your Japanese studies. I don't know if you'd remember, but Channel 20 used to run Japanese lessons in the early '90's, which I took notes on and recorded on video. I think it went on for about 26 daily lessons, and was very well done, I thought.
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Post by Soju on Aug 5, 2003 19:07:48 GMT -5
Yobo - All you need is Japanese text support for your browser. I assume you already have Korean text support for it  One thing I find interesting about Japanese numbers is that they have different words for the same number, depending on what you're counting - round things versus flat things, for example. |
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yobo
Junior Addict
Posts: 205
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Post by yobo on Aug 6, 2003 4:27:31 GMT -5
Yeah Soju, I do remember that counting complication now that you mention it . Also there's that oddity that when a word ends in a vowel it isn't pronounced (desu=dess) and when it ends in a consonant a vowel is often added to the end pronunciation. A lot like New Yorkers and their "r"s.
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Post by ArdenJoy on Aug 6, 2003 11:01:55 GMT -5
Lol - yes, counters are the worst! There are so many of them and they are all very specific...
Just to list a few (no text support needed ^_^)
To count thin objects such as sheets of paper, -mai is used.
Ichi-mai, Ni-mai, San-mai, Yon-mai, Go-mai, Roku-mai, Nana-mai, Hachi-mai, Ky•-mai, J•-mai
To count long skinny objects such as pens or bottles, -hon/pon/bon is used.
Ippon, Nihon, San-bon, Yon-hon, Go-hon, Roppon, Nana-hon, Happon, Ky•-hon, Juppon
To count volumes such as books, -satsu is used.
Issatsu, Ni-satsu, San-satsu, Yon-satsu, Go-satsu, Roku-satsu, Nana-satsu, Ha-ssatsu, Ky•-satsu, Ju-ssatsu
And that's only the start........it can be very frustrating to be in the middle of the sentence and have to stop to think "Now...how do I count this? It's an animal...but it only has two legs...so which counter is that?"
I wondering...does Korean use a similiar system? I tried searching it on the internet, but didn't come up with anything.
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Post by fantasticeel on Aug 6, 2003 13:01:48 GMT -5
I think Korean has something similar, but it doesn't seem quite as hard as the Japanese system. When you specify a certain number of something in Korean, you usually have to use a counter word. An example in a book I have is that where we would say "two books" in English, Koreans would say "book two volumes," volume being the counter word.
Chinese also has something similar to the Japanese system, where you have to use classifier words to specify certain numbers of things, for instance "ji" for straight, stick-like things (in Cantonese).
I'm not sure about counting in Korean, as in "one, two, three." You can hear people on TV saying "hana, tool, set," without any counter words...
One hard thing about Korean numbers is that they have two completely different sets, pure Korean and Sino-Korean. To count some objects you have to use the pure Korean, and some take the Sino-Korean. There is no system to it, you just have to memorize which objects take which kind of numbers.
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Post by kalbi on Jan 7, 2004 17:53:42 GMT -5
cardinal number (ordinal number)
0 = yung
1 = il (ha-na)
2 = ee (dool)
3 = sam (set)
4 = sa (net)
5 = o (da-sut)
6 = yook (yu-sut)
7 = chil (il-gop)
8 = pal (yu-dul)
9 = goo (a-hop)
10 = sip (youl)
11 = sip-il (youl-hana)
12 = sip-ee (youl-dool)...........
13 = sip-sam
14 = sip-sa
15 = sip-o
16 = sip-yook
17 = sip-chil
18 = sip-pal
19 = sip-goo
20 = ee-sip (su-mool)
21 = ee-sip-il (su-mool-ha-na)
22 = ee-sip-ee (su-mool-dool)
.
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30 = sam-sip ( seo-roen)
31 = sam-sip-il (seo-roen-hana)
32 = sam-sip-ee (seo-roen-dool)
.
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100 = bek
1,000 = chon
10,000 = man
100,000,000 = uk
10E12 = jo
10E16 = kyung
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)
Mikey explained the asian numbering system well (I've been studying Japanese for three years, so I'm all too familiar with it). It's really quite different from the numbering system we know, especially when you get higher up. 