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Post by ajk on Mar 14, 2024 1:58:20 GMT -5
May take me a while to get to this but I wanted to start it...anybody wants to say anything at all about the series, good bad or indifferent, fire away.
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Post by sageuk on Mar 14, 2024 13:42:48 GMT -5
There were things that I felt could have had a bigger impact than it did (like the burning of Gaegyeong) and the stuff between the second and third invasions we can all agree was mostly lousy (thank goodness for the last four episodes) but overall I don’t regret watching Goryeo-Khitan War. Pretty flawed but enjoyable show as long as we ignore THOSE episodes.
7/10 I guess.
Speaking of which, the opening song really grew on me.
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Post by MTR on Mar 17, 2024 16:45:27 GMT -5
Lee Jay-Yong the Black Assassin almost ruined it . He is like “ rent a bad guy “ , he does the same act every time . So yes Eps 17-27 were dire .
However Eps 1-16 and 28-32 returned to the high standards of the original episodes . So aside from the 10 episode gap it was really good to excellent .
I loved how we got to see the impact of the invasions on the common people . Battle scenes were epic . 27 was the worst episode in the Series and 31 and 32 were the best .
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Post by ajk on Mar 24, 2024 12:56:51 GMT -5
Working on it today...sorry, not neglecting here just have been hit with a lot of stuff at once.
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Post by ajk on Mar 26, 2024 22:08:07 GMT -5
It’s not easy to summarize KKW because it was basically like watching three different series. The first seventeen episodes were terrific for the most part (14 was a dud but that was an anomaly.) Really, really good. Then all of a sudden with 18 we got eleven episodes of increasingly over-the-top fiction which at times wasn’t bad fiction and more often yes it was bad…but it was all fiction. And then suddenly with episode 29 things suddenly snapped back completely the other way and then some. Almost no fiction but rather stiff and unimaginative, but the war scenes were some of the best ever in a historical.
Some of the positives:
--Plenty of excellent writing in the early episodes. In particular many of the council scenes and diplomacy scenes were as good as any other series has done them.
--The way that the young emperor’s development was portrayed over the first seventeen episodes. At the end of episode 2 we saw him completely alone, hardly more than a kid and all scared and alone in his room. The way they slowly paced his growth and his learning to be more comfortable in the job, that’s exactly what would have happened in real history.
--The Mokjong we got was certainly boldly written, have to give big credit for that. Maybe some people didn’t care for it, fair enough, but it was far, far better than the gutless way that Iron Empress presented the gay issue.
--Most of the battle scenes were very strong, not just those at the end. We saw interesting weapons being used and all of it was very believable. And as usual the stunt guys they brought in did outstanding work. We always have to remember to give the stunt guys a round of applause at the end of one of these shows because they unfailingly do a good job.
--Xiao Paiya. What a well-written and interesting character he was (up until the final four episodes when no one was interesting any more). There was a subtlety about him that made him fun to watch, and it always felt like he was the smartest guy in the room. But he wouldn’t always say what he was thinking even though you could tell he understood the situation. Kim Jun Bae is the actor’s name and he was terrific. He doesn’t have a long history of playing historical characters but you sure hope that changes after his work here.
--Mrs. Gamchan. The other supporting character who shined both in the writing and the acting. Yoon Bok In was the actress, I mentioned her name before; just about every scene with her made you smile for some reason. And just the idea of creating her character, it was a brilliant piece of writing because it solved the problem of how to fit a more traditionally written Gang Gamchan character (written that way for the actor who played him) into the more modern style of writing that tends to humanize characters more. Give him a grouchy wife and watch them interact. Creative solutions like this one are what makes a good series great. Yoon and Choi Soo Jong, every scene with the two of them was excellent. They could have written the entire series from the perspective of their house and their marriage and it would have worked.
--The Gwakju takeover in episode 12, wonderfully done in every aspect. Maybe the best single fragment of storytelling in the series. And for that matter, pretty much all of Wang Kyu’s story was terrific. His story is so compelling and the series did him right. (All except his death scene, which apparently most people loved, not me, but we already dealt with it in the episode thread.)
--Huge, huge credit for all of the scenes that showed us the larger picture of life in the larger country and how citizens were being affected by the events in the story. I don’t think we’ve ever watched another series that did such a good job of this. Which isn’t saying much...but what we got here was outstanding. Even Park Jin’s story before it went off the rails—showing how people had to face the conscription of their sons and losing sons to war. Like I said before, somebody needs to put all of these slice-of-life scenes onto a highlight reel and make it required viewing for anybody who wants to write or produce a historical. Textbook examples of how to do this right, and it lifted up everybody else and everything else in the story. Bravo.
Now some of the negatives:
--Obviously the biggest negative was the sudden takeover of the series by the head writer’s ego beginning with episode 18. Much of the fiction was boring, and none of it was necessary. It betrayed all of the good work that was done before it. And all of that Black Assassin stuff just kept getting more and more over-the-top to the point of being unwatchable. The writer who took over the job and was responsible for these eleven episodes, he must never be allowed near a traditional historical again, ever ever ever.
--In the first eight episodes some of the story was rushed. They moved too quickly through important things, like they were in a big hurry to get to something. We also didn’t get any information about the earlier first invasion, not even a narrated text to provide important background and context. Now that we’ve seen what junk they filled eleven subsequent episodes with, it’s obvious that they should have been in less of a hurry early on.
--The lack of good historical information from narrated texts or maps. With the narrated texts the problem was quantity—only six of them in the entire series. Why? Good heavens it’s such an easy way to fill in important information without spending a lot of money. Were they afraid people would impulsively change the channel? With the maps, part of the issue was quality. I guess they tried to make them look cool and stylish and video-game-y but they were too dark to see clearly and didn’t even show coastlines. They were useless.
--Three scenes with Ji Chaemoon single-handedly fighting off large groups of soldiers single-handedly. Ordinarily I wouldn’t mention such a small amount of content, but these fights were so cartoonishly ridiculous that they embarrassed the series. Incredible that anyone on the production team thought this was a good idea.
--The opening titles, a total ripoff of Kingdom’s opening. I mean, the Kingdom people should sue! Did they think we’d forget? Kingdom was only a few years ago.
--Speaking of ripoffs, indulge me on this one but the cat poisoning in episode 2 was completely unnecessary, it didn’t make sense, and it was a ripoff of the exact same thing in God of War (unnecessary there too). And why raise the issue of a dead animal after what nearly got last year’s historical shut down and taken off the air? That is NOT what you want anyone thinking about when you’re going to be using a whole lot of horses in the series including in battle scenes. Poor judgment by the producers.
--The clenched fists. Good grief, how many times did we get a close-up of a clenched fist? Once, okay maybe, but dozens of times? It turned into a running joke. And not a laugh-with joke but a laugh-at joke. Over and over and over again.
--The final scene of the series in the final episode. You want to leave people with something good. This one was not good, just inexplicably weird and creepy. Especially after such a good episode and such a dramatic military victory. A real stinker.
Two other points. One, the music was adequate—not bad, nothing special. But the production staff should get credit for how they used it—it wasn’t overused for the most part. It was used with a light touch, to accent things rather than overemphasize them. Compared to all of the pounding drums and overuse of music in last year’s series, this was light-years better.
And two, Choi Soo Jong agreeing to do the series was turned into a huge deal...and give credit, he did a good job. Mainly because they put him in an appropriate role for him and wrote the character to play to his strengths. Yes the writers did try too hard to shoehorn his character into every little part of the story in the first half. But that wasn’t his fault. And his scenes with Yoon Bok In were always so much fun, they obviously had good chemistry together. Thumbs up for him.
SUMMARY
So...bottom line, the majority of the series was so good that it was worth watching. And I’m glad that KBS chose this story to tell. Incredible that it’s gotten so little attention from the networks who produce these dramas. It’s one of the best stories in the peninsula’s history. A massive, long war for the country’s survival; a classic underdog story with the young emperor tossed in over his head (and everybody loves the underdog), the young guy they found to play Hyeonjong did a good job; the home team wins in the end; what’s not to like? It’s just a shame that the good stuff had to be tarnished by the completely unnecessary silliness. How many times have I said at the end of one of these series, trust the story. Maybe it wasn’t a lack of trust as much as pure ego, but whatever. Hopefully if they do a historical next year they’ll keep the good stuff and not let that second head writer anywhere near the production.
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Post by ajk on Mar 27, 2024 21:39:16 GMT -5
Two final things. One, there wasn’t much of a place for humor in this story but there were several funny moments worth remembering. --Episode 6, Xiao Paiya reports to his emperor: “The Goryeo soldiers fought well for some mysterious reason.” That’s the way to sell it to your angry dumb boss. --Episode 12, Wang Kyu returns from desperately chasing after the one Khitan trying to escape from Gwakju and sound the alarm. Everyone is panicked--“Did you lose them?”—and Wang just wordlessly drops the guy’s head on the ground and it rolls around. Thunk. LOVED that. --Episode 15, The Khitan emperor, getting another piece of bad news about something Yang Kyu has done: “Was it him again?” Yi Soon Shin!! Yi Soon Shin!! --Episode 25, Lady Kim’s court lady: “Ever since the olden days, men have known nothing unless they were told.” I don’t think they’d have written that line twenty years ago. It was terrific. --Episode 29, Mrs. Gamchan telling her husband not to take foolish risks: “A commander does not fight on the front line. He stays in the back and observes his soldiers to make sure they are fighting well.” This wasn’t as funny in the story as it was in thinking about all of the historical dramas that put kings and high generals at the front of the fight, where they would never, ever have been. See, even Mrs. Gamchan gets it. --Episode 32, “Have two bowls.” If we ever tried to pick the greatest single line in a historical drama, this would be a contender. A monumental battle that annihilates the enemy after years and years of fighting for survival, an exhausted soldier looking grateful just to be alive, says he’s hungry and his officer looks at him and says that. OK you can get seconds. The last thing you’d expect to hear at that moment and it was priceless. -------------------- And then of course there has to be the choice of the Mrs. Guk MVP! As in, the character with the most wisdom, insight, common sense, any or all of those, who everybody else would have been much better off if they had listened to more. The early contender was Empress Wonjeong for the advice she was giving her young husband about how to be a good ruler. But we all saw what happened to her...or to be more accurate, what the second head writer did to her. Sorry Empress, it wasn’t your fault, we know...but no way. Eventually it became clear that it was neck-and-neck between Gamchan and Xiao Paiya. Two subordinates consistently delivering good ideas and badly needed common sense to the two rulers who both dearly needed them. The two MVPs; right up until the end it was too tough to split ‘em. But there’s only one trophy. And in the final battle, while XP was flying all over the place (albeit on that dumb mounted camera) exhorting his men, Gamchan, well...whispered into the back of a sword wagon. Ohhhhh dude, so close...but every last little point mattered and he lost one here. So the Mrs. Guk MVP, by a nose: Congratulations and good luck with that boss of yours, you’re gonna need it.
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Post by ajk on Mar 29, 2024 5:35:12 GMT -5
And also, thank you to truth and sageuk and everyone else who shared information on the real history behind this story. Whenevery we would start one of the episode threads and put our two cents in about the episode, it always surprised me that within 24 hours or so there were already more than 100 thread views, and the numbers continued to grow in the following days. Yes there are search engine bots out there, but not that many. Certainly it wasn't from my complaining about dead animals or the silly things I said each time...I think plenty of English speakers were looking for good information on the real history in the story, and knew they could get it here. So yeah this board did some good and I really appreciate getting the facts that you guys were nice enough to share.
Definitely we want to keep speaking up and fighting the good fight for honest history in historical dramas. Seems like plenty of people want that!
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