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Post by ajk on May 27, 2023 4:06:59 GMT -5
I'm going to take the next week and browse through the episode threads. But here's the thread right away, for anybody else who wants to share anything about the series, positive or negative.
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Post by ajk on Jun 6, 2023 19:07:51 GMT -5
Apologies for being away from here for a bit. Family stuff continues to press on my time, and I also needed to get caught up on the Call The Midwife season. Today is the last day that the new season is up on the PBS website and I just finished watching the final episode today. So I'll start getting caught up on everything here.
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Post by 𝔰𝔢𝔞𝔫𝔪𝔞𝔠𝔩𝔞𝔦𝔯 on Jun 6, 2023 19:55:04 GMT -5
Historically Daeju Dogeum married a Baekje noble named Ji Hwon and had a child. I wonder who thought attempting to pair her up with Park Sulhee would be an interesting plotline...
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Post by MTR on Jun 6, 2023 20:09:25 GMT -5
My thoughts are i really loved it up until Goongyae’s death . After that it just goes off the rails . There is an ambush scene that is just laughable . Things do pick up towards the end especially with the rebellion of Gyeon Hwon’s sons against their father .
I think If it had less episodes it would have been so much better . Overall I liked it much more than i disliked it .
It’s a great shame that Dawn Of The Empire is not available as that starts a few years after this ends . It also continues the stories of several of the characters from this series although the focus is on the 46 th King ( Emperor ) Gyeongjeon . The next in the series is the awful Iron Empress .
Age Of Warriors followed Dawn but in a later time period . It really sucks that that one is not around anymore . To be honest it’s my favorite . Sadly my vhs copy was lost .
I still have a lot of affection for Wang Guhn despite its flaws which are mainly in pacing in the latter episodes .
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Post by truth on Jun 7, 2023 8:58:53 GMT -5
Sad there is only one drama about the time period so far and it's been 23 years since it was made.
I think this time period deserves a new drama or film, but budget is probably the biggest problem since this period would have to involve a lot of battles.
Hopefully Netflix can fund a drama or film that covers this time period in the future.
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Post by ajk on Jun 8, 2023 1:42:07 GMT -5
Isn't that surprising? Considering how often they revisit other stories over and over. Today they could do a lot more CGI stuff for the battles so yeah, maybe somebody like Netflix might be willing take a shot at it. Historically Daeju Dogeum married a Baekje noble named Ji Hwon and had a child. I wonder who thought attempting to pair her up with Park Sulhee would be an interesting plotline... Hopefully that person is locked away somewhere serving a long prison term. I'll be getting to that, absolutely....
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Post by truth on Jun 8, 2023 22:16:33 GMT -5
Today they could do a lot more CGI stuff for the battles so yeah, maybe somebody like Netflix might be willing take a shot at it. Just imagine the quality of the costumes and battle scenes with the same amount of money or more that Kingdom was provided with. It would be epic.
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Post by ajk on Aug 21, 2023 5:34:40 GMT -5
I didn’t forget about this thread. Very much the contrary. Figured I’d go through twenty of the episode threads each day, just to make some notes about things worth revisiting. Well most days I made it through about five. Would end up going back to Dailymotion and rewatching a certain scene, or even most of an episode, and it ended up taking forever because there were just so many wonderful things worth watching again.
Where do you even start with this series? It’s not really comparable to anything else we’ve watched here. The length, and the scope of it, not so much time-wise in history (many historicals have spanned most of one person’s life) but the combination of time and geography. So many different places where there were important parts of the story. And the budget! Good heavens a lot of money was plowed into this thing.
So there’s no point in trying to do comparisons. But here are the main points:
First, as far as historical accuracy it seemed to be very good. Of course not much detail is available from the 900s so there was plenty of fiction to fill in the cracks. But the series did make an effort to include as much of recorded history from that time as it was reasonably possible to include. Even to the point of introducing generals whose entire names weren’t recorded, just because they were part of the historical record. I’m certainly not a history scholar but I did feel like at least the basic outline of what we saw was very accurate.
Second, the writing. The dialogue was consistently solid, in the sense of Yes this is what those people in those situations would be saying. Just as an example, how many times did I specifically mention a Bekjae council meeting that stood out as an exceptional scene in an episode. Wonderful presentation of the issues that were on the table at the time—you totally accepted that this could have been a verbatim record. And more generally just consistently very good writing and so rarely even mediocre.
The fiction that was added, most of it was very good to excellent and was reasonably plausible. A few exceptions that we’ll get to, but not many. And when the writers did fictionalize something, they were remarkably candid about it, giving us a narrated text that told us what was known and what was fiction, and sometimes even explaining why they made a choice to portray something a certain way. That was wonderful, and it helped give the viewers more faith in what we were watching.
Third, it was 200 episodes but it never got the empty of repetitive feeling that other series have gotten, especially the ones that were extended. The writers sketched out a plan and stuck to it. You could tell there were benchmarks: 51-60 was the Geumsung invasion story; 100 was WG becoming imperial guardian; 120 was Goongyae’s death; 150 finished the cholera/battle story with WG submitting to KH; 190 was KH’s removal. For the most part nothing was rushed and nothing dragged out too long. And credit the network for leaving the show alone and not trying to add or subtract episodes, which as we’ve seen never ends well.
Fourth, the casting was terrific. The guy playing Goongyae (Kim Yeongcheol), one of the all-time best performances of any actor we’ve seen here. I’ll say the same about the guy playing Kyun-hwon (Seo Inseok). Not the morbidly fascinating character to portray that Goongyae is but he sustained his own interesting character for all 200 episodes, which is amazing.
And fair enough, Choi Soo Jong did well also. I’ve complained about him before but here he was in a role that was much better suited for him. Not the ass-kicking warrior alpha-male but someone who came from a wealthy family and had education and intelligence and projected authority successfully. His voice and the sound of authority that he conveyed, it was excellent. Especially when he had to bring subordinates into his office and bust their chops—there were a few of those and they were all terrific.
And all kinds of excellent supporting character performances. Among the major supporting cast I thought the guy playing Choi Seung Woo was a terrific choice. You can totally picture the real Choi being just like that. Best of the others—the guy playing Oh Darin was outstanding. The scene in episode 51 when the Goryeo envoys confront him about switching sides, it may have been the best scene of the series. But he was always very good. And a few of the Bekjae generals were wonderful. Sudal, maybe a bit over the top at times but very entertaining. Yaesul, that touch of psycho in his eyes, perfect. And then at the end they brought in Badal and that actor played him wonderfully.
Nearly everyone was good. There were only two that I thought didn’t work. One was Doyoung. Yes the historical record said she was “an outgoing, assertive woman,” and she had some good scenes, but too often she came off as a spoiled brat. The other, a very minor one, was the Shilla crown prince. That actor just has too nice of a face for the tortured heir to a dying kingdom. And the way they wrote him, moaning and groaning and overreacting to everything, it just didn’t work. But those were the only two that I can think of.
And fifth, the budget—not just that they had a huge budget but that they spent it well and got their money’s worth. So many good battle scenes throughout the series. The second Bekjae assault on Daeya Fortress in episode 109 is one that stands out if only because of its length, but very few of them were anything less than excellent. Big weapons like catapults and flaming logs and extra-large crossbows. And so much good work by the stuntmen, big round of applause to those guys.
And it wasn’t just the battle scenes, a lot of money was spent pretty much all around to get a good result. Something we’ll probably never see again in a TV historical, sadly. Even the music. I wasn’t sure at all about it at first; a lot of tympani and nothing special. But it found its way as the series went on and became very good, partly because they kept adding new music rather than repeating the same stuff over and over, and the newer stuff was much better.
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Post by ajk on Aug 21, 2023 5:35:40 GMT -5
So those were the main points. I also made lists of my own positives and negatives. Positives first (besides the things I've already complimented):
--The narrated texts. By my count there were 244 of them and they were amazing. Not only for all of the good knowledge they contributed, but also for the montages that accompanied them. The producers spent significant money to set up visuals to complement the narration, rather than simply repeating footage we already saw. And there were some very helpful maps as well. For me they were maybe the single best thing about the series. Outstanding stuff.
--The complexity of the story compared to anything else we’ve watched. This wasn’t just a one-setting story; we had stuff going on in four different kingdoms including Sangju, and the writers mixed and juggled multiple simultaneous storylines expertly. It didn’t insult your intelligence like some of the more series have, and you had to pay attention. I did wish we had seen a little more of the Shilla story, but it’s understandable how that wasn’t a priority.
--Continuity. We’ve seen other series struggle with continuity errors and I’ve spent a whole lot of time complaining about them. But this one was just about rock solid from start to finish. There were only few times where there was a hint of a problem, maybe every 25-30 episodes, and it was always just some minor point that I caught that did little or no real harm. For such a long series with such a complex story, absolutely wonderful work.
--The whole presentation of the Geumsung operation, from episodes 51 to 60. Beginning with that Oh Darin scene and ending with Sudal on his knees begging Kyun-hwon for death. Certainly the entire story between 95 and 120, with the kingdom coming apart, was particularly strong, espeically in the writing, but I thought the Geumsung stuff was possibly the high point of the series, as far as how well the story was told and how interesting it was. And I had mentioned about how good the Bekjae council scenes were throughout the series...the one in episode 55 where they were trying to figure out what was going on, that one was exceptional.
--All of the interrogation scenes with Goongyae presiding, absolutely gripping. And I’ll also point out that in episodes 158 and 159, when Kyun-hwon invades Surabul and has the Shilla king and court submitting at his feet, that sequence was every bit the equal of the Goongyae scenes.
--Taepyoung’s debut in ep79, a foot soldier showing up out of nowhere and quoting Sun Tzu to the leadership.
--In episode 118, the knowing stares traded between Shin Seungkyum and Jang Il. Maybe the single best moment of the series, with how much was at stake that evening and how much was conveyed in that moment without a word spoken. Unforgettable.
--And I’ll give Choi Soo Jong one: WG’s last sit-down with Goongyae at the end of 118 and into 119, with him breaking down and crying over what’s about to happen. He did some excellent work in this series and this scene in particular stood out.
Now the negatives....
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Post by ajk on Aug 24, 2023 6:15:59 GMT -5
Of course we have the usual issues we get with every series. Too many flaming arrows. Some of the costumes and armors were incorrect and exaggerated. And some of the nighttime scenes were overlit. The typical compromise-for-TV stuff that we get in every series.
And then my own usual complaint about not seeing or hearing enough of the larger population. It’s especially disappointing in this series because what little we did get was terrific. One scene that stands out is in episode 100, when Goongyae is traveling incognito and encounters that old man burying a dead child and the guy gives him a piece of his mind about what a lousy emperor the phony Maitreya is. The series would have benefitted from plenty more of that.
And one debatable point—whether or not they should have used younger actors to portray Goongyae and Kyun-hwon in their earlier years like they did with WG. Both Goongyae and KH were older than WG in real history so it wasn’t quite the same problem that it was with portraying WG, but in the early episodes both actors seemed a little too old for that part of the story. Tough call there.
Those aside, I came up with six things within the series that pretty clearly were bad decisions by the writers or producers. That’s remarkably few for 200 episodes, but they were significant enough to be called out.
One, the early business about pushing WG as the “hero” and how he was predestined to unite the Three Kingdoms, and the stuff about the secret script (which came with some mysticism like Master Dosun controlling the weather). We all know he wasn’t preordained, and it just takes away from his real story to set him up like it was always a done deal no matter what. And then as the series went on, getting foreknowledge from physiognomy and drawing straws and the astrologer who was always right about everything. Come on, writers—besides the fact that we all know nothing of the sort happened with such accuracy, how does it help you present a better story if you’re telling people what’s going to happen before you see it happen? It doesn’t. Yes it’s a historical drama so we know what the events are. But the events weren’t known before they happened in history so just stop it already. These writers were obviously smart, insightful people and that makes it even more puzzling why they would stoop to writing this stuff. Blecch.
Two, the relationship angle between WG and Yunhwa. It wasn’t badly written, and who knows, it’s possible that they did know each other, especially if she was a kid from an elite family like he was. And okay, some writer had a clever idea to link the two of them together and get some extra juice onto their stories with a love triangle. But frankly I never felt like they were wildly passionate about each other beyond their family-arranged obligation. And more importantly it made WG look weak and pathetic, how he just stood by and let her be taken from him. Even after his family gave Goongyae their entire fortune to build him a palace, he couldn’t bring himself to go ask the guy for a favor? You sure felt bad for Yunhwa but you wanted to give WG a good smack! Which is not how you want to set up your “hero,” is it now.
Three, Park Sulhee going all gaga over Lady Daeju. To the point where he chases after her on the battlefield and gets a bunch of his own soldiers killed, and goes back home and they all laugh about it. Really? Why write this? Again maybe trying to get a little romance into the series, but it contributed nothing to the plot and just made Sulhee look stupid. And there’s nothing in history to support it.
Four, the ginseng story. Another situation that came from a clever idea to join the known stories about Ahjagae’s illness and Buyong’s leaving the palace. Tie them together and set the whole thing up with a no-win dilemma and get some great drama out of it, that was the idea. And it would have worked if it had been set up properly (for instance a rare herb that was overharvested and disappeared from the country centuries ago, and a lengthy course of treatment with the herb to cure a patient). Instead we got the ridiculous angle about a thousand-year-old plant (ginsengs don’t live for centuries, it’s nonsense), and a medicine so effective that the patient expels tumors out of his body with just one treatment and is completely cured. It was easily the worst, most ridiculous piece of writing in the entire series and I’m amazed that nobody in the production insisted on coming up with something better.
Five, Prince Geum-kang’s eyeball. This apparently was taken from Romance of the Three Kingdoms; a character in R3K did the same thing. Why did the writers include it here? Was it to show a grand gesture of filial duty or loyalty to his father, one that we’d be sure to remember? Well it certainly was unforgettable, can’t argue with that. But in the end I thought it was a bad mistake. The series had been humming along so well, taking the high road with no gimmicks or cheap stunts for shock value, for 143 episodes…and then all of a sudden we got that in 144. I kept waiting for a narrated text to explain it and reassure is that yes, we’re showing you this because it happened. But it was never addressed either way, and frankly it changed how I watched the rest of the series just a little bit, because once you get a shock-value stunt like that you wonder if more are coming. The series crossed a line there and it shouldn’t have.
And six, the boat confrontation in episode 198. There will be stronger and weaker scenes in any series and I didn’t want to try to single out a lot of individual scenes either way, simply because the series was so long. But this sequence, I won’t repeat what I wrote in the episode summary, but the whole thing was simply awful. By far the worst of the battle scenes in the entire series. Contrived and badly conceived and badly staged. Maybe there was some kind of a time crunch at the very end and something better had to be changed or eliminated…there must be some sensible explanation because this was so far below the quality level of everything else we got.
I’ll mention one more that I didn’t count officially, because maybe it didn’t bother most people. But it drove me nuts. If you’re doing a scene with characters drinking from cups, fill the damned cups! The actors all put so much effort into their performances, but then they’d touch a cup to their lips and put it down and it was obvious they didn’t drink anything. It made them look like they were play-acting. One of those things that, once you start seeing it, you can’t stop seeing it. Such an unnecessary distraction and such an easy thing to get right.
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Post by ajk on Aug 29, 2023 14:36:01 GMT -5
So yes there were a few stinkers along the way. But for a series that lasted longer than high school does (! it actually did, at least at one episode per week), the negatives were amazingly few. Time and again I watched an episode and was so grateful that we could just sit back and enjoy the story and not get distracted or frustrated by poor writing or mediocre production.
Bottom line, I absolutely loved it. Looked forward to it every week and it’s sad to have to let go of it now after it being a part of weekly life for so long. It was the most ambitious historical I’ve ever seen, and it delivered. Everything you want in a historical and more. KBS should be very proud of it, and so should the Korean people who funded it. Most of the historicals we’ve watched here, I enjoyed them but wouldn’t necessarily be interested in watching them again. This one I absolutely will watch again someday.
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Post by ajk on Aug 29, 2023 14:57:58 GMT -5
And just a couple of final leftovers. One, I made a list of the funniest moments that were mentioned in the episode threads. Figured it would be longer but it’s not long at all. Which is fine--give the series credit for not forcing any goofy characters into the story for the sake of comic relief. A little more humor here or there might have been welcome, but historicals don’t do that kind of thing well at all so maybe it was for the best. But there were some funny moments that came naturally out of the story: episode 14--Ki Hwon freaks out and orders the enemy messenger killed. “General, please calm down. We can’t kill the messenger.” (momentary pause while he thinks) “Beat him to near death and send him back!” Not as funny describing it but in context it worked really well. episode 33--Yangil is battling the Goryeans and can’t find his son-in-law who’s supposed to be commanding with him. He confronts the Goryeo generals, who hold up a severed head. (click for full size) “Looking for him?” And Park Sulhee with that insane look on his face was the best person to hold up the head. Came out of nowhere in the middle of a huge battle, which made it all the funnier. Don’t know I’ve ever laughed that hard in a historical. episode 43--Park Sulhee meets a rather annoyed Ahjagae for the first time; eventually tells him that Wang Guhn is his superior. Ahjagae shakes his finger: “It must be a headache to have a man like you as a subordinate.” Ahjagae of all people saying such a thing, that made it even better. episode 94--Two of Ahjitae’s conspirators-to-be go to Jongkahn and confess, and say that they’re doing so because they’re afraid of Goongyae’s mind-reading. Jongkahn knows Goongyae can’t read minds, but just for a moment he has to turn away a little because he can’t keep from smiling. It was a great inside joke for all of us viewers. Then he goes right back to the company line about Yes, it’s something to fear. Kind of a Larry Sanders Show moment. episode 120--Wang Guhn and his allies complete the overthrow of the government and drive Goongyae out of the palace. Everyone gathers in the biggest plaza in the palace, and WG tells them that “I wish to thoroughly respect the law of the land.” The guy who just overthrew the government! HA! Obviously it was unintentional and we all knew what he was trying to say. But I had to stop the video and calm down, it came across so funny. episode 124--So they recycled a joke. By the time 124 I had completely forgotten about what happened in 33, and we got this: (click for full size) The situation was different; this one was Hwan Sungil’s rather sad coup attempt. But it worked just as well, especially with the goofy look from Bok Jikyum. Besides, two heads are better than one, right? episode 147--Kyun-hwon: “There you go again. You enjoy war too much, general Yaesul. Now is not the time.” (click for full size) His reaction, not a word spoken but it was hilarious. Which leads to the more general observation that several of the Bekjae generals were very entertaining characters and could be very funny in a natural, organic way with no forced humor at all. Sudal, he was the fool who was duped into sending his troops home and losing the entire Geumsung region. He played the gullible sap beautifully. Yaesul, he always had that slightly psycho look about him, and all of the “Yu Geumpil? Yu Geumpil?” worked really well. And towards the end, we got Badal who was the sort of semi-dimwit company man who always acted like he was just a half-step behind everybody else. Each of them was entertaining and sometimes funny, but not in the sense of them trying to be funny, but just from their personalities and characters. I don’t know if this was because the person writing the Bekjae stuff was exceptionally good (remember I kept complimenting how well the Bekjae council scenes were written), or if it was more that the writers felt more freedom writing the Bekjae characters because they might get complaints if they took too many liberties with the Goryeo characters. Whichever it was, we had some good writing and acting around those three generals in particular and it added some humor from time to time. One final thing to add but it will go in its own thread.
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