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Post by sageuk on Jul 9, 2023 13:45:10 GMT -5
A note about Baekje hats. Specifically the gilt bronze crowns.. During the late 4th-5th centuries, Baekje nobles wore these hats, a different variety of them found in different parts of Baekje. It is highly believed that they were gifts from the Baekje king to regional leaders as symbols of their authority.  Sometime after the capital transfer to Ungjin (475) the gilt bronze hats seem to have fallen out of fashion. There is a gilt bronze crown found in Naju dated in the late fifth century, but it looked so aesthetically different from the ones that came before, it’s believed that the land that became Naju was a separate culture from Baekje, albeit a region that might have been a dependency.  Muryeong’s crown was later found in his tomb (dated sixth century) and it looks like this, presumably with Buddhist influence.  Silver flower headwear worn by Baekje officials have been found in the area that later became Baekje’s last capital.  Silver was also found in Naju, dated early sixth century  Woo Yonggok made a chart about it. blog.naver.com/dndudwp99/221981387157In Samguk Sagi, for the annals of King Goi (r. 234–286) it is written that kings wore gold flower crowns on a silk black cap and his ministers wore silver crowns on silk black caps. Recently, however, I’ve been seeing articles that have expressed doubts that headwear was like this during Baekje’s early period, based on archaeological evidence, believing that this fashion sense started to rise during the early sixth century. Some even believe that the gilt bronze crowns’ aesthetic was the norm during the Hansong period for even the king and his ministers, to the point the Hansong Baekje Museum drew them like that in their exhibits as seen below. Meaning the headwear in King Geunchogo may or may not be the appropriate headwear for the time period. |
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Post by sageuk on Jul 28, 2023 13:20:16 GMT -5
Does anyone remember 금수? Truth posted some of his works here. Recently he published a book that’s a compilation of Joseon era military uniforms and I managed to get a copy.  Would like to show more, but file size when I take photos are too big and I’m not sure if he’d appreciate it with me leaking stuff unofficially |
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Post by ajk on Jul 29, 2023 4:05:42 GMT -5
That book looks beautiful. Maybe there's a website somewhere that shows a sample of it? Yeah I wouldn't want anybody getting in trouble for leaking a whole bunch of copyrighted stuff.
Was the book expensive?
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Post by sageuk on Jul 29, 2023 8:10:40 GMT -5
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Post by ajk on Jul 29, 2023 13:23:21 GMT -5
Wow for 200 pages and so much detail that's a good deal. Those preview pages are amazing. Sure wish an English version would come out sometime (but extremely unlikely of course).
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Post by truth on Oct 5, 2023 13:29:28 GMT -5
 Goguryeo hanbok  Baekje hanbok  Shilla hanbok  Unified Shilla  Balhae  Goryeo  Early Joseon  Late Joseon |
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Post by sageuk on Oct 5, 2023 15:24:38 GMT -5
Someone on a server asked when Korean clothing started taking up more obvious Chinese aesthetics, saying that pre-Joseon clothing seem to have a distinctly Korean vibe.
I answered to him that during Kim Chunchu’s reign the order was given to adopt Tang dynasty clothing, so sometime during the 7th century.
When I asked what he meant by “distinctly Korean vibe,” he just said the hats and silhouettes of the robes saying that that there is a distinct Korean shape in the pre-Joseon clothes, which I did not understand what he meant considering most Koreans think the Joseon hanbok when they think old Korean clothes.
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Post by truth on Oct 5, 2023 16:38:19 GMT -5
I answered to him that during Kim Chunchu’s reign the order was given to adopt Tang dynasty clothing, so sometime during the 7th century. It is true Kim Chunchu adopted Tang dynasty clothing, but Tang dynasty clothing didn't take over all parts of the country. Men continued to wear the same clothes worn before unification. What changed to Tang dynasty clothing was the court uniform. Royal women and Noblewomen adopted Tang dynasty style clothing as seen on the picture I posted above, but regular women continued to wear the same style of clothing worn before unification. When I asked what he meant by “distinctly Korean vibe,” he just said the hats and silhouettes of the robes saying that that there is a distinct Korean shape in the pre-Joseon clothes, which I did not understand what he meant considering most Koreans think the Joseon hanbok when they think old Korean clothes. It's ironic because Joseon hanbok is actually influenced by Mongolian costume. If there was no Mongol invasion or if Korea somehow managed to win against Mongol invasion, hanbok would most likely still look more similar to Goryeo costume. If Japan somehow won the Imjin War, hanbok that we know today might have been a fusion of hanbok and kimono. |
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Post by sageuk on Oct 5, 2023 17:32:03 GMT -5
Mongols ended up influencing the look of the jeogeori correct?  Not to mention the hat that later evolved into the gat. I have noticed that Ming clothing has some similarities with Joseon Would you say some aspects of pre-Joseon fashion survived into the Joseon period or is that difficult to say? |
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Post by truth on Oct 5, 2023 18:06:46 GMT -5
Mongols ended up influencing the look of the jeogeori correct? View AttachmentYes, but the costume in that picture more specifically influenced the "Cheolik"  Which is the costume in this picture Mongols ended up influencing the look of the jeogeori correct? View AttachmentI have noticed that Ming clothing has some similarities with Joseon It's not all of Ming clothing, but a brief part of early Ming dynasty. There was a time when late-Goryeo(pretty much the same as early Joseon) style of clothing became popular in Ming dynasty. This style of fashion was known as "Goryeo-yang," and was brought over to China by Empress Ki. Ming imperial court eventually banned this type of clothing, because it didn't fit with Chinese tradition. ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EA%B3%A0%EB%A0%A4%EC%96%91#:~:text=%EA%B3%A0%EB%A0%A4%EC%96%91(%E9%AB%98%E9%BA%97%E6%A8%A3)%20%EB%98%90%EB%8A%94%20%EA%B3%A0%EB%A0%A4,%ED%86%B5%ED%95%B4%20%ED%8F%89%ED%99%94%EB%A5%BC%20%EC%9C%A0%EC%A7%80%ED%95%98%EC%98%80%EB%8B%A4. Would you say some aspects of pre-Joseon fashion survived into the Joseon period or is that difficult to say? Yes, Joseon hanbok is a fusion of pre-Joseon hanbok and Mongol costume. Just like what I said in my previous post about hanbok possibly becoming a Kimono fusion if Japan somehow won the Imjin War, pre-Joseon hanbok fused with Mongol influence after Goryeo became part of the Mongol Empire. |
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Post by ajk on Oct 7, 2023 17:33:59 GMT -5
Very nice drawings, thanks for posting them. The women sure dressed beautifully, didn't they?
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Post by truth on Oct 8, 2023 21:10:57 GMT -5
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Post by sageuk on Oct 15, 2023 20:31:26 GMT -5
Xu Jing, a diplomat from the Song Dynasty, wrote an account of stuff he saw in Goryeo. The book has been translated into English by Sem Vermeesch, which I purchased a copy of some years ago. Xu Jing provided a description of what generals of the Six Armies wore. I compared his translation with the Korean description and I tried interpreting it myself to the best of my ability, including some of the Chinese letters (to which I consulted with some Chinese folk) Believe it or not, the Chinese speakers I’ve consulted with were confused by the description even in their native Chinese. The original text describes iron being put in between the leather armor, which Vermeesch translated as iron buttons being inserted. And based on some of vocabulary words both in Chinese and Korean, said armor was sewn onto to the brocade. When I asked Vermeesch about his choice of translation and questioned if he imagined something like riveted armor, he said yes…kind of… Which then made me wonder if the leather lamellar armor worn by these generals used a combination of riveting and lacing. Even though riveting is considered to have come during Mongol overlordship. Like this image for example  What do you make of this truth? |
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Post by truth on Oct 17, 2023 16:20:22 GMT -5
First, I did not know that Modern Chinese speakers could understand Classical Chinese. That is mind-blowing.
Next, I don't have any issue with rivets. What I pointed out about was the design of the armor, not rivets.
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Post by sageuk on Oct 17, 2023 17:26:07 GMT -5
When I was asking this question, I just wanted clarification on Xu Jing’s description and how the Korean to English translation goes is all.
So you think agree might have been around even before Yuan overlordship based on Xu Jing’s description?
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