chuck
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Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 15, 2009 20:41:43 GMT -5
Munno, I'm still waiting for him to reappear. No doubt he was the mysterious person who rescued Yushin Rang's father, when he was surrounded with his army fighting Baekje.
By the way, my comments about Princess Chungmyeong were not meant to disparage her. She's a wonderful character that I admire a great deal. It's only when she is compared to Deokman that she looks somewhat ordinary.
I really like Archeon Rang, too, the Hwarang lord who weighs his orders to see if they are righteous before he blindly carries them out. He began doing this after Deokman set the example by doing so herself.
Most of Mishil's minions are pathetic creatures, as you would expect. The only one who has any (good) character, Chil Suk, is turning against her. I think.
To Mishil's credit, she at least recognizes talent and ability, and tries to recruit such people to her side. But she has no luck with the ones she wants the most, Deokman and Yushin.
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 16, 2009 1:12:11 GMT -5
I really like Archeon Rang, too, the Hwarang lord who weighs his orders to see if they are righteous before he blindly carries them out. He began doing this after Deokman set the example by doing so herself. I like him too. He's come a long way since they were younger. He definitely became a brave and righteous warrior, someone Deokman, Yushin and the Princess could count on. This would be my answer to your previous post. I don't think it was out of compassion that Mishil didn't punish Chilsuk for betraying her. She has plans and as long as he's still useful to her, he keeps breathing. Why Chilsuk saved Sohwa when he was so hell-bent on killing her and Deokman was a shocking twist. He spent 15 years searching for them. According to MBC:Queen Seon-deok intends to focus on the great leadership shown by Queen Seon-deok in controlling and dealing with the politics and strife of the time as well as discovering and supporting the great heroes Kim Yu-shin and Kim Chun-chu, who brought about the first unification of the peninsula, rather than simply retelling the historical aspect of a woman becoming queen and ruler.
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chuck
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Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 16, 2009 8:03:22 GMT -5
"This would be my answer to your previous post. I don't think it was out of compassion that Mishil didn't punish Chilsuk for betraying her. She has plans and as long as he's still useful to her, he keeps breathing."
I'm pretty sure she showed this compassion before she realized Chilsuk had deceived her. I didn't detect any ulterior motives in the scene. She seemed genuinely compassionate. As I mentioned, I think for this writer even the evil characters have some contradictory, good aspects to their character. Like Keum Young in Dae Jang Geum.
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chuck
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Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 18, 2009 10:08:40 GMT -5
SpoilersAccording to MBC:Queen Seon-deok intends to focus on the great leadership shown by Queen Seon-deok in controlling and dealing with the politics and strife of the time as well as discovering and supporting the great heroes Kim Yu-shin and Kim Chun-chu, who brought about the first unification of the peninsula, rather than simply retelling the historical aspect of a woman becoming queen and ruler. Kim Chun-chu---is he the guy who was training under Munno and helped Deokman and Yushin Rang escape the people sent out to capture or kill them in episodes 21 and 22? I didn't catch his name, but the subtitles seemed to say he was actually a son of Mishil and one of the many Kings with whom she cohabited. That would be ironic. At the end of episode 22 Deokman was being dragged away by Mishil's men, and this new martial arts expert and Yushin Rang come and attempt to rescue her from several dozen soldiers. Right at the end, they show Deokman with an expression on her face as if she had made a decision, while the battle was still in doubt. I am guessing that she is going to say something like this: "There is no need to fight. I will go back to the palace voluntarily." In other words, she is going to force the King to acknowledge her existence. Then, presumably, try to find some way to still foil Mishil's designs. The King and his advisers have already discussed one way to foil Mishil, by having Princess Chungmyeong marry Yushin Rang, so he would be the Crown Prince. However, Deokman is a problem for that scheme as well, since she and Yushin Rang appear to be in love. So Deokman is again in the position of doing harm to someone (Princess Chungmyeong) she loves. Or am I completely off base on all points?
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Post by pilseung on Sept 18, 2009 12:34:38 GMT -5
No,Kim Chunchu is a prince that became King.Namely,King Taejong Muyeol. The guy you are thinkin of is Bidam.He is Mishil's son that she abandoned when his father,King(?),refused to make her his wife.The King gave Bidam to Munno to look after. You are not completely off base on the other points.You're on the right track. Deokman is not the problem.She is the problem solver!
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chuck
Junior Addict
Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 18, 2009 13:23:58 GMT -5
Yes, Bidam, that was his name. And now I do remember Mishil mentioning in an earlier episode that she had abandoned a child when it was no longer of use to her.
Just a sidenote, I like the way Mishil refers to herself as "this Mishil." Instead of saying "I" she says "This Mishil can stop the Moon's light from shining . . . "
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 18, 2009 18:47:16 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure she showed this compassion before she realized Chilsuk had deceived her. I didn't detect any ulterior motives in the scene. She seemed genuinely compassionate. As I mentioned, I think for this writer even the evil characters have some contradictory, good aspects to their character. Like Keum Young in Dae Jang Geum. Yes, it was before she realized Chilsuk didn't kill Deokman or Sohwa and in fact Sohwa was sitting right in front of her. She probably wouldn't have known if it wasn't for her creepy, annoying brother. She must have been so moved by Chilsuk's persistence in completing his task and his eyesight was harmed as a result. Bidam was such a madman at first wasn't he? Especially the chicken scene. He seems to have mental problems which I'm sure we haven't seen the last of. He definitely has some of his mother's genes. Poor guy. I noticed Mishil speaking in the third person too. It reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld with that guy Jimmy.
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Post by mugwump on Sept 18, 2009 19:28:13 GMT -5
I am continually in awe of the writers of this show. They have so many plot twists, nothing can be taken for granted, nothing predicted. The characters are all three-dimensional and when you think you have them figured out, they surprise you. Throwaway lines or scenes in one episode become important plot points in a later one. Answers are given, but they are coaxed out slowly and in a very satisfying fashion. Eg, "What happened to Munno, where has he been all these years?" Even when you think you've been given the answer, more will come later.
I've seen this now up through Ep 34 and it just continues to progress at such a high level.
In answer to someone's question - Chun Chu is Cheongmyung's son. He was born shortly before she and Deokman met. Let me digress a little here and go into the royal relationships. There's as much incest going on in Shilla as there is in Koryo. The previous king, (Namseung from DJY, the one who got booted out when he refused to marry Mishil) was the uncle of the current king. He has/had 3 sons that have been seen so far. The first one was married to Cheongmyung and got killed early on; he's Chun Chu's father. The second legitimate son is still around; he's the minister who is on the "good side" and hangs out with the king and queen, can't remember his name. The third illegitimate son is Bidam, and he is the baby Mishil abandoned back in the first or second episode, so he would have been Cheongmyung's other brother-in-law. And she, Deokman and Bidam are cousins. Then we have Yushin. His mother is the king's sister, so he is Cheungmyung's and Deokman's cousin too.
I have a different interpretation to a couple of things discussed in this thread. Mishil's compassion for Chilsuk - when he reappeared and was blind, she was certainly tender toward him. She does take good care of those who serve her faithfully. However, I definitely do not think she was sympathetic to the apparent feelings Chilsuk has for Solwa. She looked downright jealous at that idea, and it seemed like, with her vanity, she couldn't believe he could love anyone but her. I found that scene very amusing.
Second thing - a really surprising and odd thing to me, in light of the themes in all the other historical dramas I've watched, is that no one in this show seems to give a darn about the "peksung", the people. No, not even Deokman, at least not yet (give her time). The only person who comes close is Munno. Since Episode 1, I have not heard a single royal (or wannbe royal) character talk about the duty of royalty to care for their people. There have been numerous scenes where I was expecting a speech, but it has not happened. So part of Deokman's growth is going to be learning her duty to the people (I hope). (The king is such a worthless puddle of jelly, it's a wonder he can make his way out of bed in the morning, let alone govern).
Anyway. really good show; I hope they can maintain this level of quality.
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chuck
Junior Addict
Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 18, 2009 21:20:39 GMT -5
I am continually in awe of the writers of this show. They have so many plot twists, nothing can be taken for granted, nothing predicted. The characters are all three-dimensional and when you think you have them figured out, they surprise you. Throwaway lines or scenes in one episode become important plot points in a later one. Answers are given, but they are coaxed out slowly and in a very satisfying fashion. Eg, "What happened to Munno, where has he been all these years?" Even when you think you've been given the answer, more will come later. Second thing - a really surprising and odd thing to me, in light of the themes in all the other historical dramas I've watched, is that no one in this show seems to give a darn about the "peksung", the people. No, not even Deokman, at least not yet (give her time). The only person who comes close is Munno. Since Episode 1, I have not heard a single royal (or wannbe royal) character talk about the duty of royalty to care for their people. There have been numerous scenes where I was expecting a speech, but it has not happened. So part of Deokman's growth is going to be learning her duty to the people (I hope). (The king is such a worthless puddle of jelly, it's a wonder he can make his way out of bed in the morning, let alone govern). I agree about the writer of the show. Dae Jang Geum was no fluke. I still think Mishil was sympathectic to Chilsuk's love for Sowha. She specifically commented on their shared fate, that both of them had sacrificed half of their lives carrying out a mission, and this is why she believed they were drawn to each other--or at least Chilsuk was drawn to Sowha. Sowha hasn't shown any particular feeling for him. Of course, Mishil wouldn't hesitate to kill either of them, if they were a problem to her. I think the main reason for the lack of sympathy for "the people" is to contrast with Deokman, who will eventually champion them. She hasn't done much of it yet, because she only just found out (up to episode 22) she would be in a position to do anything for them. She did allow herself to be given over to Mishil's people by Bidam, however, in order for him to get the medicine to save 200 people who were sick.
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 19, 2009 13:11:13 GMT -5
*Up to episode 34*At least we got an explanation as to why Munno was so harsh towards Bidam. At times he's hilarious but then there's that crazy, evil side of him too. After what he discovered, it looks like he's on the road to the dark side. I can imagine how Munno felt after the cave incident. Bidam was psychotic and apathetic at a very early age. How sad.
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chuck
Junior Addict
Posts: 117
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Post by chuck on Sept 19, 2009 14:03:25 GMT -5
*Up to episode 34*At least we got an explanation as to why Munno was so harsh towards Bidam. At times he's hilarious but then there's that crazy, evil side of him too. After what he discovered, it looks like he's on the road to the dark side. I can imagine how Munno felt after the cave incident. Bidam was psychotic and apathetic at a very early age. How sad. I've only seen Bidam through episode 22, but he seems like a Korean Johnny Depp. Too cool for everyone else, always with a sardonic look on his face.
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 19, 2009 20:30:36 GMT -5
I've only seen Bidam through episode 22, but he seems like a Korean Johnny Depp. Too cool for everyone else, always with a sardonic look on his face. That's a good analogy chuck. He is crazy cool. His fighting skills are extraordinary having been raised and taught by the legendary Munno. He's such a complex character. You will see as you keep watching. You love him and fear him at the same time yet you can understand some of what he does. He's a tragic figure. I would love to see a good fight between Munno and Chilsuk, the Top Guns of the Hwarang. The one shown was way too short. BTW You will enjoy the Bijae (contest between the Hwarang) in a future episode.
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Post by mugwump on Sept 20, 2009 8:19:27 GMT -5
At first I was referring to Bidam as Psycho-boy, but he has now gone way beyond that. He just cannot comprehend the difference between right and wrong. He is totally unpredictable, switching so easily from goofy to deadly. He's going to give Mishil a run for her money.
Tinkerbell, I can't wait to see the outcome of the Bijae in Ep 35. So many possibilities. And I too would love to see another fight between Munno and Chilsuk.
Does anyone else think ChunChu looks much too old for the age he's supposed to be? Have the writers taken a wee bit of license here? And I'm looking forward to an explanation of why he's been in China all these years (maybe Cheungmyung sent him away so Mishil couldn't get her claws into him?)
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 20, 2009 18:46:39 GMT -5
At first I was referring to Bidam as Psycho-boy, but he has now gone way beyond that. He just cannot comprehend the difference between right and wrong. He is totally unpredictable, switching so easily from goofy to deadly. He's going to give Mishil a run for her money. Tinkerbell, I can't wait to see the outcome of the Bijae in Ep 35. So many possibilities. And I too would love to see another fight between Munno and Chilsuk. Does anyone else think ChunChu looks much too old for the age he's supposed to be? Have the writers taken a wee bit of license here? And I'm looking forward to an explanation of why he's been in China all these years (maybe Cheungmyung sent him away so Mishil couldn't get her claws into him?) I did notice in the flashback where he didn't seem to know what he'd done wrong and was devilishly happy about it. Creepy. Recently he reprimanded Munno for not telling him. I know at first Munno was stunned but I can't imagine him not explaining to Bidam that it was basically mass murder. Munno did say most of the people were innocent. I just hope he doesn't join Mishil. That would be catastrophic. Hopefully we will see another showdown between Munno and Chilsuk. I can't wait for the outcome of the Bijae too. I'm not sure how old Prince ChunChu is supposed to be, do you? It was funny how he acted like a pansy but turned out to be pretty clever. I'm sure you noticed the actor playing ChunChu was the young Yi Soon Shin. Speaking of age, Yushin (actor from The Devil) looks muck older than his peers. In history he became a Hwarang warrior at age 15 and a Hwarang leader (Gukseon) at age 18. He definitely looks older than 18 because he is. ;D I'm also thinking the Princess sent him away so Mishil couldn't get her claws into him? I guess we'll find out the reason soon. It's not like she didn't know he existed. Remember all the awful things Mishil said to the Princess when she was just a little girl? Nothing like instilling fear and guilt into a young child. Maybe she wanted to spare him from that and she may have feared for his life. The King and Queen got upset when he was late in showing up and they suspected Mishil.
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Post by mugwump on Sept 21, 2009 18:02:11 GMT -5
Regarding ChunChu's age - I would have put him at 5-6, 7-8 at most. When we had the first time shift, Deokman and Cheungmyung were supposedly about 15, and that's when Cheunmyung was pregnant. Then we had another time jump where the adult actors replaced the teenagers. Hard to tell how many years went by, but couldn't have been too many. When we got to the events of Ep 20-25, we were told that the princesses were born about 20 years ago. Now certainly not too much more time has passed to take us up to Ep 35.
Even if Deokman had been living as a nangdo for 10 years, that would still put ChunChu at only 10 or so. I find it hard to believe she could have gone undetected for 10 or more years! I think the writers are taking a little license here (like American soap operas where babies are born and then disappear, only to turn up a few years later as teenagers).
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