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Post by Tim on Nov 13, 2005 20:02:38 GMT -5
Wow, Trespasser, you are very anti-Chinese. And what makes you think that the Hong Kong people do not have to fear the Chinese for? The British rule is over. I am against Taiwanese liberation (and I come from Taiwan, so don't give me this crap about how every Taiwanese wants liberation. yes, I am a Taiwanese local, all my family members are locals. And none of them support Taiwanese independence). But that's another arguement. Let's not get into that. OK, if the Tibetans were doing well befoer the Chinese came. so? They are doing even beter. The Chinese just build a railroad to connect Tibet to other parts of China. The Chinese government sented water and technology to Tibet. Without the Chinese, who will help the Tibetans? And China just had a recent meeting with Tibetans, celebrating their causes together. Cantonese people are Han people, genius. That's just like saying Californians are not Americans. The Cantonese are a REGIONAL people, not an ethnic. for Kando, return to Korea? which one, North or South? certainly, north, of course. Expand North Korea's power. How will south korea govern a part of land that's so close to China? Manchuria??!! I am laughing so hard when I read that part. You were not paying attention to my facts. There are less than 200 Manchurians in Manchuria. And less than 50 of them could speak Manchurian. How will a country like that hold out? I wonder... You should really think before you open your mouth (or type, in this case). You really are rascist. You spit all these facts about how evil the Chinese people are to a Chinese. Oh, one other thing, I've met with ethnical Koreans that are in Northeastern China. They do not mind being Chinese. Most of them have never even been to Korea.
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Post by Ginnycatunlogged on Nov 13, 2005 20:54:50 GMT -5
OK, if the Tibetans were doing well befoer the Chinese came. so? They are doing even beter. The Chinese just build a railroad to connect Tibet to other parts of China. The Chinese government sented water and technology to Tibet. Without the Chinese, who will help the Tibetans? And China just had a recent meeting with Tibetans, celebrating their causes together. Was closing monasteries, threatening monks, moving thousands of Han people into Tibet, stopping people from practicing their religion was "help" that is doing good for the Tibetan people?? The government may have allowed just enough real Tibet to stay to interest tourism. I am really skeptical about your rosy picture of the benefits of having the Chinese government in charge of Tibet.
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Post by Tim on Nov 13, 2005 21:19:33 GMT -5
So? They are communists! They do that to everyone! even their own people. You just listed the bad parts of communist rule. every kind of rule has a downslide. You have to look at them in general. I realize that all you people who hate the chinese say that the communists are so evil. I know they are, but they also did good things to the people of China. Why can't you people understand that? or are you too brainwashed by democracy?
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Post by Trespasser on Nov 13, 2005 21:45:19 GMT -5
Chinese have not taken over HK police yet. They will when the 50-year autonomy is over.
Tell that your fellow countrymen who elected Chen Sui Ben to power.
Why do you get that idea? Do you believe that the miracle of economic growth has reached to Tibet?
To ship in more Hans and troops.
Tibetrans were doing fine before Chinese invasion.
They just happen to speak a totally different language.
Speaking a totally different language from Mandarin.
Doesn't matter which one.
There are 10 million people calling themselves Manchus
The land you were standing used to be Korea until 1905.
So why does anybody have to take the crap from the communist?
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Post by florel on Nov 13, 2005 21:47:37 GMT -5
OK, if the Tibetans were doing well befoer the Chinese came. so? They are doing even beter. The Chinese just build a railroad to connect Tibet to other parts of China. The Chinese government sented water and technology to Tibet. Without the Chinese, who will help the Tibetans? Tim, it was interesting to hear of your Chinese view point. And I have to say that I disagree with Korean ultra extreme right wing nationalists about some subjects (about Kando subject for example). But this kind of comment, that I quote above, is "inquietant" (it's French word. perhaps "scary" in English?) This is a kand of argument which makes Tibetans (and Koreans) angry. It's exactly on the same logic with the Japanese imperialists. They have told the same thing regarding Korea. This is what they have said : "... if the Koreans were doing well before the Japanese came. so? They are doing even better. The Japanese just built a railroad inside of Korea. The Japanese government developed modern industry and technology in Korean peninsula during the colony period. Without the Japanese, who could help Koreans?" I can understand why the Chinese government concerns about minority ethnics to maintain the unity of the huge country, but at the same time I also understand why Tibetans want the liberation. From my political and ideological viewpoint (I'm a liberal left influenced a little bit from socialist thoughts in European sense), I support Tibetans' cause and as a Korean descendant, I also support my compatriots in Korean about their claim on Koguryo history subject (i. e. Koguryo is a part of Korean history, not Chinese one).
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Post by Tim on Nov 13, 2005 22:37:13 GMT -5
Florel, it's nice to have someone who isn't just badmouthing the Chinese to join in this argument. I'm sorry if I had said anything offensive to Tibetans, Koreans, etc. I was a bit angry, but only because I felt insulted first. Thank you, and I respect your point of view.
Trespasser, let me tell you a little bit of Chen Shui Bian. Before his reelection, he pulled a scan. He pretended that someone was going to assassinate him. Even people who support him know of this incident. In fact, the Taiwanese people themselves do not respect him. Did you know that when he returned to Tainan (his home city where he was borned), even the governors there did not give him a friendly welcome? He is on the verge of being recalled. Cantonese is a relative of Mandarine. I do not know how to explain this to someone who does not speak mandarin or Cantonese, but they are kind of similiar, and they use the same characters for writing. I speak both Cantonese and mandarin, so I know. They are very closely related, but not exactly the same. It's kinda like British and American English.
Trespasser, you may not like the Communists, neither do I. But you know what? They are the rulers of China, and nothing you can do can change that. I don't have to give a crap about what you say, or what other people who are against me say. But I do, because sometimes, they do make good points. However, I am receiving nothing but angry bashing from you.
10 million people that are Manchurians... not true. Unless you're including mix Han and Manchurians.
Now, for the most heated arguement, about Tibet. I just did several research online, and I found sources that said Dalai Lama, the one who first wanted Tibet to be independent, stated that they do not want independence anymore, and that he wishes both sides will work together. He's been saying that for the past few years, and he even said that in America, where there is freedom of speech. Sorry, people who support Tibetan independence, it's going to be very hard to achieve independence if even the leaders of the group do not desire for it.
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Post by donilpark on Nov 13, 2005 22:52:33 GMT -5
Ah, just the thing that the imperialists used to say when they were colonizaing other countries back in the days.... They are helping them, right? O.ho.ho.
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generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
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Post by generaldu on Nov 14, 2005 9:39:53 GMT -5
So? They are communists! They do that to everyone! even their own people. You just listed the bad parts of communist rule. every kind of rule has a downslide. You have to look at them in general. I realize that all you people who hate the chinese say that the communists are so evil. I know they are, but they also did good things to the people of China. Why can't you people understand that? or are you too brainwashed by democracy? In America I'm afraid we are brainwashed by the fact that thousands of Chinese people mortgage their lives to human traffickers in order to leave China and come to our country. Forgive us for thinking, for instance, that if a certain percentage of those Chinese women who illegally emigrate here are willing to work off their transportation debt by slaving in our skid row brothels, that the Chinese government is not doing a great job for the unfortunate people who happen to come under its jurisdication.
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Post by Tim on Nov 14, 2005 20:05:10 GMT -5
In America I'm afraid we are brainwashed by the fact that thousands of Chinese people mortgage their lives to human traffickers in order to leave China and come to our country. Oh, well, yeah, I understand, Generaldu. I live in America too. Sorry, I was a bit overreacting. But yes, I do know about the illegal emigrates who badmouth the Chinese society. Me, being a legal emigrate, is just very upset that my own people would insult their heritage, that's all. I'm just stating a fact, that the Chinese Communists did do some good things to their people. Of course, that doesn't justify their evil acts to their own people either. Ah, just the thing that the imperialists used to say when they were colonizaing other countries back in the days.... They are helping them, right? O.ho.ho. Good point, donilpark. I guess that's not good enough of a proof, eh? Well, certainly the Chinese had ties with the Tibetans for a far longer period than the imperialists did when they were colonizing lands. This doesn't exactly justify much, but this does prove that the Tibetans have been a part of China for a much longer time than the imperialist with all their colonies. Now, let me ask you all a question (especially to Americans who are radical Tibetan independence supporters). In the war against mexico for Texas and all the other western lands, was it not true that the Texans wanted INDEPENDENCE against the Mexicans, and not join the US as a state? Was it not true that there was a country called Texas long ago (tho it didn't last very long)? If you think the Chinese are suppose to free Tibet despite being together for so many generations, then should not Texas be freed as a country too?[/quote]
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Post by donilpark on Nov 14, 2005 21:52:23 GMT -5
Maybe there's no such thing as sarcasm or euphemism in your vocabulary? It's not about who's had 'ties' to whom for a longer period of time. I was just comparing your logic to the argument the imperialists made when they were conquering and enslaving other nations. They say they are protecting them and helping them, when in fact, what they are doing is oppressing and exploiting them. Just like what China is doing to Tibet. The thing about imperialist is brought in just to compare what you're saying to what they've said, not to compare the 'validity' or 'justification' of whether the impeialists back in the days had more right to colonize other nations or China does. Neither has any right to do so. Period. Having 'ties' is not a justification for taking over another people. One can say exactly the same thing about China and Korea. Korea has had 'ties' with China for more than half a millenium. So does that justify when Korea conquers China and kill many Chinese and do exactly what China did to Tibet? You do know that this does not justify anything. So what's the point of having more 'ties'? I'm not precluding the possibility of changes in territories. Boundaries between nations change, and new nations spring up, while old ones fall. But doing it the way China did is, well... not quite right.
So you basically think that Tibetans will all either starve to death or be invaded and killed off by another nation unless they are a part of China?
You know what, the more I read this, it sounds extremely arrogant. The world will be fine without China, and in fact, it will be a better place without it. Some refer to China (not Chinese people) as the cancer of the world, and excuse me, I agree with it.
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Post by Tim on Nov 14, 2005 22:59:34 GMT -5
OK, that was the last straw! You, donilpark, are so arrogant that it makes me sick! I was trying to be nice and stick to my point, but you just have to piss me off! Where were you brought up to say that the Chinese should all be killed off?! What gives you that right? You are exactly like the Ku Klux Klan people, except you are probably Asian. How many times have I justify the fact that I do not agree with the Chinese people killing off minorities??!! HOW MANY TIMES?!
You are same insane, sadistic retard. Go to hell! Fry there!Burn there for an eternity! You are freaking rascist, and I hate you for that! When people are being nice, you don't go around telling them that their race suck, and how you think that they are a cancer! If i am arrogant, what are you??!!
What about North Korea?! They are threatening to bomb the world with nuclear weapons, and yet, you sit back telling me that China is the problem. You are so idiotic that I cannot describe it. We, the Chinese, have helped other nations! Sure, we have tortured them just as well! and im saying that was wrong of us! But we still helped them in some way, so how can we be a total hazard to this world?
This world would be a better place without China? Do you know how arrogant you are? How rascist you are?! You know what I think? This world would be better off without YOU!!
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Post by donilpark on Nov 14, 2005 23:36:45 GMT -5
You haven't been making sense from the beginning. So that wasn't really the last straw. Tsk, tsk, again, you misinterpret others' words and get pissed on it. This sounded like I was saying that the Chinese should be killed off? Maybe there's some problem with your English, I'm afraid. Um... you don't sound angry... You sound more paranoid. If you wanted to curse me, why not use some better words? What about North Korea? They are bad too. So, should I start listing all the bad things in the world? I thought our topic here was China? Sigh... even after I made it clear that 'China' is the cancer of the world, not 'Chinese people,' you refer to me as a racist... I can say the same thing about my own government, and that doesn't make me a traitor or, for that matter, a racist. But well... suit yourself.
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Post by Tim on Nov 14, 2005 23:48:46 GMT -5
Oh? So if it was the Chinese government that bothers you, then why did you say that the world would be better without the Chinese? Huh??!! Wonders... hmm... I think your English needs help too. If it's the government you hate, then shouldn't you say that the world would be better off without communists? When you are cursing the whole China and saying that they shouldn't exist, then you are saying Chinese people shouldn't exist.
I am angry and I am paranoid. So? You just insulted my people and my ancestors. What did you expect? You thought I was just going to say "yeah, your right. My ancestors are really evil. They let the communists rise. I wish my people never existed! I wish my own race would all be purged from the world!" Fat chance. You will never hear me say that literally.
Ok, so killing off the Chinese was an exaggeration. But you did made it very clear that you said you wish the Chinese race never existed. Don't tell me that my English is wrong, but when you say China shouldn't exist, your saying the Chinese race shouldn't exist. Because without a country first, where will the people come from? Or are you suggesting the Chinese should be a group of barbarians that will not have a country because they are either too small in numbers are too stupid to start a nation? You should look at yourself before cursing others.
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Post by donilpark on Nov 15, 2005 0:27:12 GMT -5
Hey, please. Falsifying won't get you anywhere when what I posted is right there, just few posts up from this.
So, I wonder where I said 'that the world would be better without the Chinese?'
You thought so? Too bad. However, as I've been observing, and surely others would have noticed, your arguments are clouded by your nationalism.
Whoa.... It's still not clear?
Isn't this enough? Look in the brackets! "NOT CHINESE PEOPLE" I'll just take it that you somehow missed that. Otherwise, you wouldn't just be stupid, but a liar. And I don't want to call anyone a liar.
So, if I say that the war in Iraq is "America's" fault, that means I'm condemning all the Americans, right? Riiiight....
And one more thing, don't you think you kind of offended Tibetans yourself? By implying that they are a people who can't even take care of themselves... I don't think you're in a position to get upset about someone offending your people. (not that I did. It's just that even if I did, I don't think you can be like this after all you've said about another people)
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Post by Tim on Nov 15, 2005 0:43:31 GMT -5
Oh, so now you call me a liar and stupid? I think you don't get it. You said the world would be better without "China". Where would the Chinese be? If I am stupid, you are ignorant. So a guy can't love his country. If I am stupid and lying if I can't love my heritage, then I am so guilty, and I would receive death for that. I would not care. I will not allow someone to bash my heritage in front of my face!
America? You want to bring America in this? Go ahead. You just said America is responsible for the war in Iraq. But you never said the world would be better without the Americans. You were being very vague with the Americans, but with the Chinese, you said that they are a cancer, and that the world would be much better off without them. You didn't say that to the Americans. Therefore, your proof is corrupted.
I'm sorry, things are still not clear for me. You never answer why without China, there would still be Chinese people. Don't call me stupid and a big liar while it is you who is being that.
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