Post by TheBo on May 26, 2004 11:03:28 GMT -5
In the thread earlier on this board, called "Status of Women" I said the following:
<<When Yeun-seng was mourning to Jang-geum that she could not be any help to her because she was "scared" of the king (if you know what I mean), she said that she should have gotten lessons on "how to please a man" from the kisaeng women. I don't think she was referring to dancing lessons.>>
There followed a contentious argument on the status/duties/definition of "kisaeng," hinging mostly on the definition of "geisha." I was bull-headed in my contention that geisha (and by extension, kisaeng) are fancy-arse prostitutes. Well, I was wrong--Yeun-seng may very well have been seeking dancing lessons. Here are a number of links that prove it:
1) This link is to a three-part article for visitors to Japan, on a Japanese travel site:
gojapan.about.com/cs/japanesegeisha/a/geisha1.htm
2) This one is really helpful (and easy to read)
; it appears to be someone's labor of love:
marian.creighton.edu/~marian-w/academics/english/japan/geisha/geisha.html
3) This article, from Japan Zone, is from a more personal point of view. It does mention some connection of prostitution TO geisha practice. Also, it talks about the novel, Memoirs of a Geisha, but does not mention that the subject of that novel, Mineko Iwasaki, sued the author because he perpetuated wrongful stereotypes about geisha:
www.japan-zone.com/culture/geisha.shtml
4) I believe this is a blog. It contains a lively discussion of the subject:
joi.ito.com/archives/2003/04/28/are_geisha_prostitutes.html
5) And this is "Immortal Geisha." I have not yet teased out what it is, exactly, but I think I like it:
www.immortalgeisha.com/ig/index.html
6) Finally, an article about their little-discussed counterpart, the male geisha:
www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taikomochi.html
Whatever this says about kisaeng, it certainly is enlightening about geisha.
(See, you may THINK I cannot admit when I'm wrong, but then you'd be wrong.)
Bo
<<When Yeun-seng was mourning to Jang-geum that she could not be any help to her because she was "scared" of the king (if you know what I mean), she said that she should have gotten lessons on "how to please a man" from the kisaeng women. I don't think she was referring to dancing lessons.>>
There followed a contentious argument on the status/duties/definition of "kisaeng," hinging mostly on the definition of "geisha." I was bull-headed in my contention that geisha (and by extension, kisaeng) are fancy-arse prostitutes. Well, I was wrong--Yeun-seng may very well have been seeking dancing lessons. Here are a number of links that prove it:
1) This link is to a three-part article for visitors to Japan, on a Japanese travel site:
gojapan.about.com/cs/japanesegeisha/a/geisha1.htm
2) This one is really helpful (and easy to read)
; it appears to be someone's labor of love:marian.creighton.edu/~marian-w/academics/english/japan/geisha/geisha.html
3) This article, from Japan Zone, is from a more personal point of view. It does mention some connection of prostitution TO geisha practice. Also, it talks about the novel, Memoirs of a Geisha, but does not mention that the subject of that novel, Mineko Iwasaki, sued the author because he perpetuated wrongful stereotypes about geisha:
www.japan-zone.com/culture/geisha.shtml
4) I believe this is a blog. It contains a lively discussion of the subject:
joi.ito.com/archives/2003/04/28/are_geisha_prostitutes.html
5) And this is "Immortal Geisha." I have not yet teased out what it is, exactly, but I think I like it:
www.immortalgeisha.com/ig/index.html
6) Finally, an article about their little-discussed counterpart, the male geisha:
www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taikomochi.html
Whatever this says about kisaeng, it certainly is enlightening about geisha.
(See, you may THINK I cannot admit when I'm wrong, but then you'd be wrong.)
Bo
; I think you are definitely right on the money with regard to the Korean cultural context of kisaeng. As an esteemed Korean translator (and being Korean), your understanding and interpretation is definitely invaluable in the sea of speculation that has followed this discussion. Frankly, I have been uncomfortable with the way kisaeng has been loosely translated as "geisha." In Hawaii, where we do have a significant Japanese cultural heritage, I can understand that particular translation which makes for easy understanding among the population here in the middle of the Pacific. However, I certainly would not be comfortable if Indian thawaifs or Chinese qinglous were also brushed with the same translation stroke to become simply "geishas." Therefore, your input into the nature of the kisaeng bears profoundly into this discussion regarding their status vis a vis the Japanese geisha. 