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Post by firearrow on May 18, 2011 19:34:41 GMT -5
Whatever "historical" drama I watch- think about the statement that all myths have at least 10% truth to them. What I enjoyed about Hwang Jini was the care that was taken in recreating the clothing and jewelry, a glimpse into the social order of the time, and the dancing. Whether she danced or didn't- from this drama I have a better understanding of the use of drums, knives, etc. in Korean dancing. Realized the importance of what different colors in the culture have-viewing all the hanboks. And of course, telling someone to "go perform a crane dance" took on a whole new meaning. From King Sejong, I learned the importance of science if a society is to grow and survive, it gave me info around the time the current uprisings were happening in China. It made me realize the "Silk Road" trade did not just change Europe, but in reverse, China. In all, viewing these dramas, don't think about who has on the right armour-if something seems mythical go to the Internet, or have been bold enough to ask a Korean. Although, when I started watching Yi Shin Soon, asked a Korean-American if he knewYi. Should have put a spoiler on the answer, he said the man was the Admiral Nelson of Korea-no surprise the end of thatrama.
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Post by griffin on May 18, 2011 21:06:29 GMT -5
Wow amazing stuff On Jini i was able to borrow through the library this thesis from Harvard written by a Korean Student ,it was well researched and had lots a translations ,not just her poetry ,but her own diarys as well as contemporary accounts , She was a Kisaeng but was famous for her musical skills and her poetry which often lashed out at the government and men in general ,she had few lovers and got away with so much because she was the bastard daughter of a ranking minister ,also she refused to bathe had dreadlocks and wore funeral white at her poetry readings ,she was also stunningly beautiful and sadly died aged 40 of either TB or Cancer . www.kungfumovies.net/31640.html this is the all region Butterfly dvd . Wow, interesting! Thanks for providing further info on Hwang Jin-i, I only know she's famed for her intellect, her poems, music and beauty. Not very sure if she danced. I thought gisaeng were divided into 3 classes, dancing etc, is restricted to the top tier which in turn is further divisified but I'm prolly wrong. What I do know is that not all gisaeng were trained in the same way, there are those with skills unique to a province; it could be poetry, horse riding, sword dancing, etc. Hehe, that reminds me, I tried to get a taste of pangsori on a tv program but no sub were provided, sad! POV, the pacing was dreadfully slow in the beginning, then after a few glimpses of later eps I did not think it worth while to catch. I found myself getting fascinated by Jin-i's scholar love who though young, had this really large awful black bushy beard. Getting distracted by props is a bad sign! ;D Whoever decided that the char should have such a beard made a mistake. P.S. I'm wondering why there aren't any sageuk that featured gisaeng with horse riding skills or other? ;D It's always the same stuff: them entertaining with music and dancing and feasting ...
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Post by sageuk on May 18, 2011 21:38:58 GMT -5
Present for you griffin. A youtuber has half the IYSS series on his channel www.youtube.com/user/Koguryeo19Will you like it will you not? I don't know.... I never bothered to watch Hwang Jini mainly due to the fact its about kisaeng. I think that I'm a male has something to do with it
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Post by MTR on May 18, 2011 22:24:22 GMT -5
As Fire Arrow pointed out the costumes ,camerawork and the dances are spectacular ,most of the lovers depicted were her real life lovers including the 16 year old kid thats what made her become who she was . What was missing is her becoming a feminist icon which is very important to the story .
And Ha Ji Won was perfect as Jini she nailed it given what she had to work with .
So really i have mixed feelings on it .
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Post by griffin on May 19, 2011 0:22:31 GMT -5
@sageuk, thanks for the link! ^^ I took a quick glance over and watched the video on that particular page. More exploration later but it looks like I should be able to start on IYSS soon.
@dyc, would you happen to have more info on gisaeng? I have the impression / idea that the way they function changed over time. This is what I have gathered...
* It was originally an official operation of previous reigns before the Yi Dynasty. Despite debates on abolishing this system, it was not carried out.
* Selected gisaeng were detailed to work in local public offices. Perhaps some were sentenced to such an occupation. These gisaeng were taught to sing, dance, caligraphy, etc and had to retire at age 30.
* Gisaeng were categorised effectively in occupations : medical, musical, sewing, with gibu to oversee their livelihood. The gibu system was institutionlised in the latter Yi Dynasty.
* In later Choson, gisaeng were divided into 3 classes. Top grade that entertain high officials and even at state functions. Middle grade who were part time prostitutes who were also trained in songs and dances. Third grade who were not taught those skills. This division would dissolve much later when the traditional class system collapse.
Differences ..
Gisaeng in Andong knew Daehak by heart Gisaeng in Gwandong specialised in gasa Gisaeng in Yeongheung specialised in songs of the ancestors of the Yi Dynasty Gisaeng in Pyongyang specialised in Gwansan yungma Gisaeng in Uiju, Bukchong, Cheju were excellent horse riders Gisaeng in Eujiu were excellent sword dancers
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Post by MTR on May 19, 2011 1:31:23 GMT -5
You nailed it . Back to Jini she refused to dance or learn because she felt it was demeaning .
On the subject of Historical Accuracy though i really feel it is important to a degree .Why ? Because people with scant knowledge of history who learn reel history through films and dramas end up believing this stuff and pretty soon fiction over takes fact ,no greater example of this is there than the Japanese Classic Chushingura or 47 Ronin .
The realty was a bad tempered lecherous middle 30's minor lord struck a courtier near retirement with his Tanto (small blade )in the Pine Corridor of Edo Castle during a visit by Imperial Envoy's for which he was ordered to kill himself and his clan was abolished and castle confiscated .Some 18 months later 47 of his former retainers broke into the courtiers mansion in the dead of night and killed 3 bodyguards 13 unarmed servants and wounded 22 others also unarmed .
Thanks to some Puppeteers than Kabuki Dramatists and of course over 200 films and tv dramas the whole story morphed into the courtier becoming evil and corrupt and the ill tempered lord becomes a noble victim ,the raid becomes a protracted two hour battle against 50 bodyguards and as such legend has overtaken facts .
In the case of Dae Jo Young the real story is pretty dull ,a family of Malgal's serving as Generals in Goguryeo jump ship after the fall and are made generals in the Tang Army ,posted near what would become Balhae they sit around for 30 years than when Tang are caught in 2 wars they rebel and create Balhae but the first thing they do is send pledges of fealty to Empress Wu (Ok they did beat a Tang Army )and assure her they are still loyal to Tang which the Empress with her army's stretched had to accept .
On IYSS Yes Samurai Armour and crests is important because it just shows laziness and lack of care on the part of the production dept ,for the same money spent they could have got it right . The drama never depicted the Japanese side being Hideyoshi did not know how to rule in peace time so he sent all the potential troublemakers off to China via Korea while keeping their families hostage . He also eliminated two of his own nephews and their families and one of his best generals . On Won Kon the man was a coward and a drunk ,why portray him as a pig headed but brave man ?. Iron Empress A stateswoman becomes an Amazonian Warrior and her lover a displaced Shilla Prince . Hwang Jini An outspoken courtesan who refused to dance because she felt it demeaning ,becomes a great dancer . The King And I . Yonsan takes revenge for his mother , Yonsan neither knew or cared about his mother ,he killed Ministers who were openly critical of the Yi Dynasty from the line of Sejo ,the actual body count was much less than dramas depict .
I can see why dramatic turns were made to DJY and King And I because the real stories had to be beefed up for dramatic reasons ,but all the others perpetuate myths where fiction becomes fact .
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Post by sageuk on Jun 18, 2011 20:44:54 GMT -5
A little late, but of all the battles in IYSS, which one was your favorite? Its kind of hard to choose, but I narrow it down to three: Hansando, Myeongryang, and Noryang.
One of the most spectacular things about the battle of Myeongryang was that it was 12 ships against a few hundred. SO much adrenaline and excitement rushes into my head no matter how many times I watch it. Plus its the only battle in the drama where Yi SUn SHin actually fights (not counting the firing of arrows)-okay, that part didn't actually happen as far as I know, and I'm fully aware that he didn't really fight Kurujima Michifusa, but hey, it looks awesome, so what the heck.
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Post by MTR on Jun 19, 2011 0:35:47 GMT -5
Not late at all and i agree Myeongryang is my favorite by far . The chain between the two islands , the whole battle is superb and it really puts a lump in your throat to watch it ,its amazing . One of the best battles on any tv show period and also the highlight of the whole drama .
BTW what is that song on the music video at the end of the series ?Its really haunting .
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Post by griffin on Jun 19, 2011 5:07:39 GMT -5
@dyc, so of all the sageuk you have seen, which best fits your bill and kept true to history? ^^
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Post by MTR on Jun 20, 2011 16:40:07 GMT -5
That's a tough one because its really hard to think of any Historical Drama from any Country that can be both accurate and enjoyable , The producers of IYSS beat the drum loudly as far as accuracy but it was not ,still the drama was strong enough to overcome the flaws . Anyway to the double whammy of accuracy plus enjoyment im stuck between Dawn Of The Empire and AOW ,To be fair both are guilty of tampering with History but minor compared to most other dramas .Add Yi San and Sejong to the list . And im not a stickler for accuracy as i may seem i enjoyed EOTS ,Geunchogo,Queen Seondeok ,which were not accurate ,its when a drama makes big claims on accuracy and than does what it wants and expects people to fall in line with it.
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shiku
Junior Addict
Posts: 159
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Post by shiku on Jul 15, 2011 18:20:44 GMT -5
I was watching Hur Joon and they had a couple of episodes on the Imjin war more specifically the battle at Pyongyang (sp?) where they showed the japs with muskets, spears and swords while in IYSS they only had muskets. They also showed that the Joseans used cannons to defend their fortress which wasn't seen in the fortress battles in IYSS. I was surprised though that the admiral only got one mention yet he did so much work while general Shiilip got more than one for loosing the battle. I also find it interesting that in IYSS Captain Chung wasn't recognized as a meritous subject while the people who fled with the King including Hur Joon did.
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Post by truth on Jul 16, 2011 11:32:39 GMT -5
You nailed it . Back to Jini she refused to dance or learn because she felt it was demeaning . On the subject of Historical Accuracy though i really feel it is important to a degree .Why ? Because people with scant knowledge of history who learn reel history through films and dramas end up believing this stuff and pretty soon fiction over takes fact ,no greater example of this is there than the Japanese Classic Chushingura or 47 Ronin . The realty was a bad tempered lecherous middle 30's minor lord struck a courtier near retirement with his Tanto (small blade )in the Pine Corridor of Edo Castle during a visit by Imperial Envoy's for which he was ordered to kill himself and his clan was abolished and castle confiscated .Some 18 months later 47 of his former retainers broke into the courtiers mansion in the dead of night and killed 3 bodyguards 13 unarmed servants and wounded 22 others also unarmed . Thanks to some Puppeteers than Kabuki Dramatists and of course over 200 films and tv dramas the whole story morphed into the courtier becoming evil and corrupt and the ill tempered lord becomes a noble victim ,the raid becomes a protracted two hour battle against 50 bodyguards and as such legend has overtaken facts . In the case of Dae Jo Young the real story is pretty dull ,a family of Malgal's serving as Generals in Goguryeo jump ship after the fall and are made generals in the Tang Army ,posted near what would become Balhae they sit around for 30 years than when Tang are caught in 2 wars they rebel and create Balhae but the first thing they do is send pledges of fealty to Empress Wu (Ok they did beat a Tang Army )and assure her they are still loyal to Tang which the Empress with her army's stretched had to accept . On IYSS Yes Samurai Armour and crests is important because it just shows laziness and lack of care on the part of the production dept ,for the same money spent they could have got it right . The drama never depicted the Japanese side being Hideyoshi did not know how to rule in peace time so he sent all the potential troublemakers off to China via Korea while keeping their families hostage . He also eliminated two of his own nephews and their families and one of his best generals . On Won Kon the man was a coward and a drunk ,why portray him as a pig headed but brave man ?. Iron Empress A stateswoman becomes an Amazonian Warrior and her lover a displaced Shilla Prince . Hwang Jini An outspoken courtesan who refused to dance because she felt it demeaning ,becomes a great dancer . The King And I . Yonsan takes revenge for his mother , Yonsan neither knew or cared about his mother ,he killed Ministers who were openly critical of the Yi Dynasty from the line of Sejo ,the actual body count was much less than dramas depict . I can see why dramatic turns were made to DJY and King And I because the real stories had to be beefed up for dramatic reasons ,but all the others perpetuate myths where fiction becomes fact . There are many theories regarding DJY's background. I believe in the theory that DJY is 100% Goguryean, not a Malgal.
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Post by mugwump on Jul 17, 2011 17:50:32 GMT -5
Every time I watch this show I feel sorry for Dodo. No one ever listens to him. Last night Japan lost its first general to YSS, and it's all because he didn't listen to Dodo.
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Post by TheBo on Feb 12, 2015 11:24:14 GMT -5
Hey, here's something that may be related to IYSS. This weekend Bob and I watched Yojimbo (Kurosawa's 1961 film, later ripped off by Leone/Eastwood's Fistful of Dollars). Yojimbo, BTW, is excellent, I'd never seen it before, and we got the sequel Sanjuro from Netflix so looking forward to that. So, in that film there are a lot of Japanese actors who play assorted villains and losers of that sort, and one of them looked EXACTLY like the guy who played Wakisaka Yasuharu in IYSS--and I mean EXACTLY. According to Asian Wiki, Wakisaka was played by THIS GUY, who's been in everything BTW. So he's clearly a Korean actor. Do you think it's possible his father was Japanese, or that Korean actors were getting work in Japan in the 60s? I obviously don't know the cinema history here, and it's hard to find info on him because there's some k-pop cutie who has the same name so everything on line turns out to be cooing about the young guy (yuck LOL). Any ideas?
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Post by MTR on Feb 14, 2015 4:27:22 GMT -5
Hey, here's something that may be related to IYSS. This weekend Bob and I watched Yojimbo (Kurosawa's 1961 film, later ripped off by Leone/Eastwood's Fistful of Dollars). Yojimbo, BTW, is excellent, I'd never seen it before, and we got the sequel Sanjuro from Netflix so looking forward to that. So, in that film there are a lot of Japanese actors who play assorted villains and losers of that sort, and one of them looked EXACTLY like the guy who played Wakisaka Yasuharu in IYSS--and I mean EXACTLY. According to Asian Wiki, Wakisaka was played by THIS GUY, who's been in everything BTW. So he's clearly a Korean actor. Do you think it's possible his father was Japanese, or that Korean actors were getting work in Japan in the 60s? I obviously don't know the cinema history here, and it's hard to find info on him because there's some k-pop cutie who has the same name so everything on line turns out to be cooing about the young guy (yuck LOL). Any ideas? Actually Leone did not rip it off , he thought his producers had purchased the remake rights,as such he thought he was making a legit remake until Kurosawa sued him . Leone's defense was that Kurosawa ripped off Hammett's book Red Harvest . Eventually Kurosawa got the royalties for showings out side Italy save Mexico which was awarded to Leone . The film bombed in Mexico because the Mexicans were the bad guys . As Leone was making For A Few Dollars More the same producers tried to block the film, than released a couple of Rawhide episodes as a fake sequel . Later Director Kihachi Okomoto who was close to Kurosawa confessed Akira did indeed steal the story from the Hammett book Red Harvest . To your question Bo probably coincidence , Japan had a much bigger film industry than Korea in the 60's, so highly unlikely any top or mid level Japanese actors went to Korea . The Tartan muffler that Nakadai wears in Yojimbo was a gift from Sean Connery, it was so cold he refused to take it off so they had to work it into the costume . If you and Bob are watching some classic Samurai on Netflix i would recommend SWORD OF DOOM (1966) with Nakadai . KWAIDAN (1964 ) with Nakadai HARA KIRI (1964 and 2013 ) both versions are classics , though the original is one of the greatest Japanese films ever . SAMURAI BANNERS (1967 ) Mifune RED LION (1969) Mifune GOYOKIN (1968) Nakadai KILL (1968 ) Nakadai ZATOICHI MEETS YOJIMBO (1970 ) Mifune . 13 ASSASSINS (1963 version ) WHEN THE LAST SWORD IS DRAWN (2003 ) .
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