ronin
Junior Addict
Posts: 168
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Post by ronin on Jul 30, 2008 3:18:39 GMT -5
What really happened to the real Chief Gang Sangin? I liked this character along with Yun Hwe in the beginning when he was a drunken "has been". Was he trying to give the symbols of Military Command to King Sejong out of sincerity to the people? Or was he trying to make the new King Sejong a puppet king (since he still seems weak) with Chief Gang behind the real power like the military leaders in the Goryeo Dynasty in the Age of Warriors TV series or the Shoguns and Daimyos in Japan during medieval time? It seems like there's more to his story than what's shown in the TV series. Thanks ahead for any historical input.
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Post by ajk on Aug 1, 2008 15:32:15 GMT -5
I don't know, ronin, but that's a good question. I did get the impression that there was a fair amount of historical support for the story and that he was a real minister and was really executed on that date, but I wondered how much of the story behind it was true, especially the part about him stealing the authority tablets.
It certainly is becoming clearer why Taejong is going after Shim On. First Shim goes to the king and tells him to give military authority to his son so that all of the state authority is with the king, and then Gang (who’s one of Sejong’s supporters and was with him for those years in the north) suddenly steals the tablet symbols and tries to give them to Sejong. What else would we expect Taejong to think about all that, especially so many loyal retainers having burned him during his own reign? He must think he’s doing the right thing for Sejong.
But as for why Gang really took those tablets…well, my reaction to it was, here’s a guy who’s taken orders for his whole life, and then all of a sudden he has this tough problem and he has to think his way out of it. So he tries to think hard, and the result is a dumb idea. Yun Hwe was there and should have been wise enough to talk him through the problem rather than abandon him to it.
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Post by Candylover on Dec 10, 2008 20:12:03 GMT -5
Next is what I posted on the Philadelphia historical group. I hope it will be helpful. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today I had some spare time, so I translated more passages of Annals of the Chosun Dynasty to learn about the victims' crime. My translation is neither complete nor interesting, but it might give some ideas of how the writer of GKS summarized the history and what she created.
Aug. 25, 1418 The abdicated king ordered that Deputy Minister of Defence Kang Sang- In and Chae Ji-Ji be arrested and imprisoned, because Ministry of Defence made report to the king first, not to the abdicated king. Whenever the reporters went to the king, he refused tp listen to the reports, saying "Why didn't you make report to the abidicated king?" Hearing about it, one day the abdicated king told Kang Sang-In, to see what Sang-In meant by acting like that, "What are the uses of the ivory plate and the plum plate?" Kang Sang-In replied, "They are used to call subjects." The abdicated king took out the plates and said, "Now I don't need these anymore. Take these to the palace." When Kang Sang-In brought them to the palace, the king asked, "What are these?" Kang Sang-In said, "These are used to call generals (from all over the country)." The king had Sang-In take the plates back to the abdicated king. The abdicated king said to Won Suk and Choi Yun- Duk, "In my message, I've already asserted that I would take charge of important military affairs, but Sang-In and others (in Defence Ministry) only report to the king and not to me. Besides, previously when I ordered that the candidates for government posts be listed, Sang-In put his younger brother Kang Sang-Rye on the list, and when the king gave his brother sajik(a government position) on the basis of the list, he said to me, as a token of thanks, 'His Majesty appointed my brother Sang-Rye to sajik (on his own).' Sang-In deceived the king." The abdicated king also had Choi Hahn deliver his message to the police, saying "Previously I said to the king, 'You will inherit my concerns. In spite of my lack of virtue, I know many (military) people since I reigned for a long time. So I will take charge of military affairs on my own.' But now the Defence Ministry does not report to me except for patrol activities (minor ordinary activities). What's the matter with my listening to military reports? Investigate who was the first to propose to skip the reports to me. Torture could be necessary." Therefore the Defence Ministry awaited the official decision on its punishment, No Hui-Bong was ordered to examine all the military affairs, and Won Suk was ordered to go to the Defence Ministry and stay awake all night (to check the Defence Ministry). [my two cents: The ivory plate with king's signature inscribed on it was used to concentrate an army, close and open the gates of the capital city; plum plates were used to call court officials and generals. So they were the symbol of military command. The fact that the year 1418 was King Sejong's first reign year and he had been deprived of military command by his father explains why he didn't know about the plates. The Minister of Defence Park Seup, who was newly appointed when King Sejong ascended the throne, also didn't know who the reports should be made to, according to his later confession. Deputy Minister of Defence Kang Sang-In, who had been the right-hand man of the abdicated king for 30 years, knew every details of military affairs and was the workhorse of the ministry.]
Aug. 27, 1418 The police made a report, "We tortured Kang Sang-In and other six men, but they insist that they were just careless. Please permit us to torture Park Seup and Yi Gak together." The abdicated king answered, "It's been a short time since Park Seup was appointed (as Defence Minister), so put him aside. Kang Sang-In has been following me from the time when he was young, and obtained important posts in the Defence Ministry. But he has forsaken my favor, become an ingrate, and always thiks about deceiving me. Previously he deceived the king into appointing his brother to a governement post, and then he said to me that the king appointed his brother. His crime is serious. Torture him harshly to the extent that he is not dead.
Aug. 29, 1418 The abdicated king pardoned Park Seup and Kang Sang-In due to their previous contributions, and Kang Sang-In was banished to his hometown. Kang Sang-In had been the servant of the abdicated king long before he ascended the throne. The abdicated king sent a verbal message to him, "You served me for 30 years, and that's why I pardoned you. I call for your grave reflection."
Aug. 30, 1418 Government inspectors proposed that Kang Sang-In and Park Seup be punished, but the abdicated didn't agree.
Sep. 6, 1418 Government inspectors proposed that Park Seup be punished, but the abdicated king just banished him.
Sep. 14, 1418 Minister of Justice, Kim Yeo-Ji and others sent up a memorial to the abdicated king, saying "The fundamental of politics is to mete out reward and punishment justly. If reward and punishment is not justly meted out, how could we promote virtue and reprove vice? We proposed that Kang Sang-In, Park Seup, Kim Ja-On, Yi Ahn-You, Yang Yeo-Gong, Song Eul-Gae, Chae Ji-Ji, and Yi Suk-Bok be punished, but Your Majesty just banished Kang Sang-In and Park Seup on the basis of their will. Deceiving the king is unforgivable in spite of their contribution to the state. If their minor contribution can grant them pardon, it's unjust." The abdicated king demoted Kang Sang-In to a slave belonging to Danchon county, banished Park Seup to Sacheon.
Nov. 3, 1418 In the living room, the abdicated king said to Cho Mal-Saeng, Won Suk, Jang Yun-Hwa, and Ha Yeon, "I talked over Kang Sang-In's affair previously, but didn't bring it to a conclusion. Now I'd like to talk it over with you again. I appointed him to the Deputy Minister with my special favor, but he didn't appreciated it. He didn't make military reports to me and the only reports he made to me were "All quiet" at every hour. Moreover three days later after the king succeeded to the throne, he came to me and said that the hawks that had been supplied from every province should be presented to the father king (not to the king), and I agreed to him and ordered him to instantly make it official by documents. But Sang-In put off making official documents for four or five days. I reminded him of the official documents, and only then he suggested that the king be consulted before the official documents are made and delivered. I agreed to him. What's more, when I called Kim Guk-Jin who had been banished to Hongju, Kang Sang-In didn't bring him. If he had been faithful to both me and the king, how could he have behaved like that? His conduct suggest that he is plotting treason. He's stupid and evil. He should be interrogated again." Won Suk said, "Park Seup insists that he just followed Sang-In (in skipping report), but it's unbelievable." The abdicated king sent Jang Yun-Hwa to the houses of Left and Right Ministers to ask their opinions. Minister Park Eun said, "No crime can rival that of Sang-In in its seriousness, but he was lightly punished thanks to the benevolence of Your Majesty. Now that we have a chance to interrogate him again, I am really glad." Yi Won's opinion was the same as Park Eun's. The abdicated king ordered the police to arrest Kang Sang-In, Park Seup, Chae Ji-Ji, and Yi Gak again.
Nov. 21, 1418 After the police made Kang Sang-In kneel in glass four times, he said "I thought the military command of a country should come out from one commander, so I didn't make reports to the abdicated king. And it was due to its difficulty (and delicacy) that I couldn't tell the abdicated king why I didn't report to him. I also talked it over with Park Seup, and suggested to skip reporting to the abdicated king. He agreed." "One commander" meant the king (not the abdicated king). Because he didn't still confess, the police made him kneel in glass again. He said in a rage, "Then, I betrayed the king." The interrogation continued, and he said more angrily, "Then, I just wanted to be the king's favourite." When the abdicated king tried to abdicate in 1406, Kang Sang-In cried out so prominently that the abdicated king instantly recognized it. When he actually abdicated in 1418, many subjects cried out bitterly and loudly, but this time Kang Sang-In's sadness didn't reach those of the many other subjects. He was prominent once again and the abdicated king instantly noticed it again.
Nov. 22, 1418 When the the royal police interrogated Kang Sang-In, he said, "On day in front of the palace gate I came across Shim Cheong (Shim On's younger brother), who said 'The size of the palace guards are small, so the king is not closely guarded. Why didn't you increase the number of guards?' I answered, 'If the guards (who serves the abdicated king outside of the palace) are brought back, there would be no problem.' Shim Sheong said, 'We need not talk it over if the guards are concentrated.'" Kang Sang-In also said, "When I dropped in the house of Minister of Interior Yi Gwan, he asked me, 'What made you seldom drop in my house these days?' I replied, 'I am very busy since I have to go to both the palace and the residence of the abdicated king.' Yi Gwan said, 'What do you feel about serving two kings? I think all commands should be given by one commander.' I said, 'I agree with you, but have no choice.'" Sang-In was again made kneel in glass. After that he confessed, "I don't remember the exact date, but one day outside of the abdicated king's hall I said to Shim On, "I think we need to increase the number of the guards up to 3,000 since they have to serve both the king and the abdicated king now," and he agreed. Later then I happened to have something to talk over with Shim On, so I went to his house in the evening. When I said "The military commands should come out from one commander(the king), not from two commanders(the king and the abdicated king)," he agreed. When I said the same thing to Yi Jong-Mu, he also smiled approval. When I met Minister Yi Won on the road outside of the palace gate, and asked what he thinks about the military commands coming from the two commanders, he said, "What could I say about it?"
Nov. 23, 1418 When the police reported Kang Sang-In's confession, the abdicated king said "As I said before, at last we have come at a true knowledge of the affair. The interrogation should proceed so that this high treachery can be removed." Cho Mal-Saeng said, "No one doubts about the faithful father-son relation of the two kings, and Your Majesty's taking charge of military affairs is only for this country. But this people bewilder us by trying to transfer the military command (from that abdicated king to the king). No one should be granted pardon." Kang Sang-In was confronted with Yi Won and Yi Jong-Mu. Yi Won said "Deputy Minister Kang, you should not make us guilty," and Yi Jong-Mu said the same thing. Kang Sang-In said, "I couldn't stand flogging. I was caught in a trap." Shim On's absence made him unable to be confronted with Kang Sang-In. Previously, Kang Sang-In was tortured many times, but he showed a little spirit. At that day, he could hardly speak. The police made Shim Cheong (Shim On's brother) kneel in glass, but he didn't confess. After kneeling in glass again, he finally began to confess, "My brother On said 'Military command should come out from one commander' and I agreed." Hearing about it, the abdicated king said, "The ringleader is Shim On! His clans including Sang-In and Yi-Gwan should be executed, and (their dead bodies should be) displayed all over the country."
Nov. 26, 1418 The abdicated king said to Park Eun, Cho Mal-Saeng, Yi Myung-Seok,and Won Suk, "Kang Sang-In and Yi Gwan committed a serious crime enough to have them executed, and Shim Chung and Park Seup's crimes are less serious. Since Shim On, the ringleader hasn't returned yet (from China), how about confronting Shim On with them before execution?" Park Eun replied, "If you're thinking about cross-examination, Sang- In is indispensible and other three are not. But Shim On's treason is so self-evident that we do not need cross-examination and need not put off the punishment. As for treasion, telling a principal from an accessory is not requird. Please don't grade their punishment." The abdicated king ordered that Kang Sang-In be torn into pieces, and the others be beheaded. Before the execution, Kang Sang-In cried out that he is innocent and was made guilty by flogging.
Dec. 5, 1418 Ahn Su-San, Shim On's brother-in-law (Shim On's wife's brother) was arrested under the suspicion of sending a servant to meet Shim On to the border. But the abdicated king released him because the royal police made a report that it was Shim On's wife who sent a servant.
Dec. 22, 1418 Shim On was brought back (from the border) under the escort of Yi Uk, and interrogated. He, not knowing Kang Sang-In and others had been executed, requested that he be confronted with them. After flogging and kneeling in glass, he said "I can't escape (this situation)," and began to confess, "What Sang-In and others confessed is all right. As a soldier, I just wanted to assume military power, and talked it over with Kang Sang-In and the others who were executed. Except them, no one talked it over with me."
Dec. 23, 1418 Previously, the police questioned Shim On, "What position did you want to put the abdicated king in?" Shim On replied, "Does your contrived question mean that I will be rude to the abdicated king?" The police reported, "Shim On said he would behave insolently to the abdicated king." The abdicated king thought for a long while and said to the king. "I've been thinking about bestowing a poison on him (as a death penalty). Now that I heard about his confession, I have no choice but to bestow a poison." He said again, "In spite of his execution, the Queen (his daughter) need not necessarily be deposed."
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Post by MTR on Dec 11, 2008 18:51:32 GMT -5
That was superb thank you . Now what do the annals of Joseon say about the Crown Princess Scandal ? Another interesting point is Cho Mal-saeng ,its true that he was banished for corruption and Sejong faced a veritable uproar from his ministers for sparing his life,Sejong's claim was Cho was too talented to die as in the series ,after 5 years Cho was given a pardon and awarded a governorship .
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Post by ajk on Dec 12, 2008 15:51:34 GMT -5
Once again I can't thank you enough for your generosity, candylover. Very nice of you to take time to share this stuff with us.
Kneel in glass?!? OUCH! That's a new one on me.
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Post by tinkerbell on Dec 13, 2008 19:25:24 GMT -5
Thanks Candylover! It's always good to know the real history.
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Post by Candylover on Dec 14, 2008 5:09:52 GMT -5
My translation is nothing as compared to the hard work of ajk. And Thanks for you guys' attention. Since the crown princess's scandal seems to be what many people here are interested in, I translated a passage related to it. As usual, it's from Annals of the Chosun Dynasty. Of course, there are other related passages in the annals, but I believe that in the passage I translated, King Sejong summarized the scandal on his own so we can grasp what really happened at that time. And I have to admit that King Sejong's frankness quite surprised me. Hope you enjoy it! (If the moderator considers my translation contains sexually offensive stuffs, he/she is free to hide all or parts of my translation. Any suggestions or corrections to my transaltions are welcome!)
October 26, 1436, 18th reign year of King Sejong
In the Hall of Sajeong, The king ordered Chief Secretary Shin In-Sohn and Judicial Secretary Kwon Chae to come up to him, and other subjects to get out of the hall.
The king said, "Of later years things are not going very smoothly, so I feel difficult. Recently I have another peculiar thing, which I'm ashamed of even mentioning. My family has been regulated very well, and I owe that to the Queen. Since She was gentle and not jealous of the concubines, King Taejong admired her all the time, saying that her virtues hang down like boughs and reach down (to her people). That's why my family has been harmonious. When the crown prince was 14 years old in the 9th year (of my reign), I was told that he needs to get married to bring forth the heirs to the crown, so I appointed a girl from the Kim family to a princess. But Princess Kim was so stupid and not sagacious that she brought about the accident of the 11th reign year. I deposed her and appointed a girl from the Bong family to a princess, but she and the crown prince lived in discord. The Queen and I admonished her and she seemed to have changed a little, but what happens in their bedroom cannot be taught even by their parents. Once when I talked it over with Huh Jo, he said, 'That's a serious problem. Concubines of decent families are needed for the heirs to be born as soon as possible.' After three consorts were newly appointed, Princess Bong was very jealous of them, and when one of them, Consort Kwon got pregnant, she got even more jealous. She said to the escorts around her, 'If Consort Kwon bring forth a son, we all will be kicked (out of the palace),' and cried out. One day, I and the Queen called her to say "You're very stupid. Why are you so jealous of Consort Kwon's having a son? Even though you ought to be joyful, you seems to bear a grudge on her. Don't you think your behaviour is peculiar?" Yet, Princess Bong didn't see her errors at all. Previously the nursemaid of the crown prince used to do chores in the palace. After her death, another aged maid was picked out to do chores by the Queen. The quiet and sincere maid sent the clothes, shoes, and belts of the crown prince to her father, and made women's clothes for her mother from the crown prince's underware and jackets with Princess Bong's approval. I didn't put blame on her, because I believed that she did that for her parents, but admonished her that underwear is not suitable for making clothes for the parents. After that, I always said to the crown prince, 'Even though you have consorts, you should not keep away from the princess,' and he seemed to perfome some favor for her. Soon the princess said that she is pregnant, and we were overjoyed at the news. But one month later, the princess said, 'I got abortion, and something hard was brought forth. Now it's under the bedquilt.' I sent an aged escort to check it, but she reported me that nothing was found under the bedquilt. She lied. Moreover while the crown prince was absent in the palace last year, the princess took a peek at unknown people through a break in the wall of the escorts' lavatory. She also tried to send food and things left over unused in the palace to her mother. Despite of the crown prince's disapproval, she secretly sent the food that she left over on her own to her parents. When she presented Song Ki, who helped in her father's funeral, with gifts (of the palace), she didn't inform the crown prince of it. Considering that she wasn't sensible as women usually aren't, I left her alone. However there seemed to be rumors that the princess loves an escort named So-Ssang and they even share the bed. One day, while So-Ssang was cleaning the rooms, the crown prince abruptly asked her, 'Do you really share the bed with the princess?' She replied frightened, 'Yes.' Since then I have heard several times that the princess loves her so much that whenever So-Ssang goes out of her sight, she gets very angry saying 'I love you so much, but you don't love me that much,' and So-Ssang says to others 'Her Majesty loves me so prominently that I am worried.' Because So-Ssang and Consort Kwon's maid Dan-Ji liked each other, they sometimes slept together. But the princess didn't let them keep company with each other. Another maid Seok-Gah-Ee was ordered to keep an eye on them by the princess. Since the rumor was afloat, the Queen and I called her and aked about it. She answered, 'On the winter solstice day of last year, the princess called me into her room, while the other escorts were outside the door. The princess wanted me to sleep together with her. Although I didn't want, she threatended me, so I had no choice but to go behind a folding screen half-naked. The princess took off all my remaining clothes, made me lie down, and we played with each other the way a man and a woman have intercourse.' I've been frequently informed of escorts and maids loving each other and sharing the bed. I hated that and only after I made strict regulations so that anyone who departs from the rules would be given 70 or 100 lashes, the customs began to be controlled. Hating the customs, it was the will of Heaven and perhaps I was guided by Heaven. Who would ever have imagined such obscenity of the princess? When having been called and asked about it, she said, 'So-Ssang and Dan-Ji loved each other. They not only shared the bed at night but also put their necks into contact with each other and sucked their tongues in the daytime. But that's what they did, and I haven't shared the bed (with her).' Even though she insists on her innocence, now that every proof is evident, she can't hide it anymore. How could the princess have known that they had brought their necks into contact and sucked their tongues? It's so evident that she got accustomed to seeing such behavior and got envious of it. About other behavior such as peeking through a break in the wall and having her escorts sing (obscene songs), she's made a confession to me. I think what she's confessed is not so important compared to the So-Ssang incident, and I don't mind it, but once I was informed of the thing related to So-Ssang, I've made up my mind to depose her. The role of princess is not light. Now that she lost her virtues, how can she behave responsibly as the Mother of the Country? But deposing a princess and installing a new one has been considered important in the history. Therefore in China, Emperor Guang-Wu of Eastern Han and Emperor Xuan-Zong of Tang has been criticized for their kicking their wives out of the families. Likewise, if I depose the princess again, it will surprise people. So I was worried about it, and at a loss what to do. Yesterday, I ordered the two princes, Ahn-Pyeong and Im-Ahn to talk it over with Prime Minister Hwang Hee, Right Minister Roh Hahn, and Minister Shin Gae, and they all consented to deposing the princess. I meditated on the issue repeatedly, and arrived at a conclusion. Confucius and Zi-si (one of the disciples of Confucius) kicked their wives out of the house, and another ancient man kicked his wife because she scolded a dog in front of his parents. They did it for what they really cherished, and now I have no choice but to do the same thing for a great cause. You thoroughly know all about what happened. So prepare a royal order (on the basis of what I told you). When I deposed Princess Kim, I was young enough to let my spirits rise to the skies. At that time I thought such an important thing as deposing a princess should not be treated vaguely, so ordered everything be written down in detail in the royal order, but this time we need not do the same thing. Since the princess's misbehavior of sharing a bed with her escort is too obscene to be written down in the order, the order ought to be prepared to depose her on the basis of her other misbehavior such as jealousy, having no son, and having the escorts sing obscene songs."
Shin In-Sohn, along with Kwon Chae, delivered the king's word to Hwang Hee, Roh Hahn, and Shin Gae, and they all prepared the royal order to be sent up to the king. The deposition was informed to the royal shrine by Kim Maeng-Sung, and the princess was deposed, demoted to the commoner class, and returned back to her her house (out of the palace).
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Post by tinkerbell on Dec 14, 2008 11:25:25 GMT -5
Thanks Candylover. Wow! I can see why it was a scandal. We really appreciate you taking the time to translate this so we know the truth.
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Post by bidaclue on Feb 5, 2024 8:08:49 GMT -5
King Taejong did perform some seriously movements in order to come to the throne and to maintain the system he did what he did but it is so sad that history but cannot put hose deeds in the context of the time he lived in, the situation he experienced as jeopardy to his country, the principles he kept in order to safeguard the system, etc. In all series I watched in shich dipicting of this king was included he was villified to the extreme dhat even the truth was taken out of context. This is so clearly to see in this drama too.
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Post by ajk on Feb 9, 2024 0:27:38 GMT -5
Welcome bidaclue, thanks for joining us. He was a fascinating historical figure, no question. Did you watch the King of Tears series? I thought that was an interesting attempt to show how his thinking developed. Would be interested to hear what you thought of it. You're always welcome to speak up about any of the series we watch here. Thanks again for joining.
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