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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 28, 2008 18:26:29 GMT -5
I agree with ajk. I had commented on that scene after it happened. The Goguryeans went into the whole situation intending to deceive the Turks in order to receive their help. They led the Turks to believe they would be handsomely rewarded and what made it worse was the fact that Mimosa made the statement that "unlike Tang, Goguryeans keep their word". To add insult to injury Gulsabiwu took back the money bag in exchange for keeping the Wolf's secret, which was not to tell anyone what had happened . The statement "all's fair in love and war" doesn't apply in this particular situation. I think it's fine to trick the enemy but the Turks were not the enemy.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jan 28, 2008 20:56:49 GMT -5
What episode # was it? Where are the East Coasters in their viewing? Maybe they can clarify the situation...because i strongly recall the Turks not fully keeping their bargain but demanding more...
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Post by seven stars on Jan 29, 2008 9:27:57 GMT -5
Don't recall the epi JP but I've gotta go with Tink on this one.
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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 29, 2008 17:55:03 GMT -5
JP it was episode #69. You would expect underhanded behavior from them not the Goguryeans who were professing to being honest.
We saw ep. #92 last week in PA.
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 29, 2008 20:18:18 GMT -5
Li Kaigu tops the list, indefinitely. DJY has saved his backside more times than I can count, and he's still a hateful mess. Aigu!
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 29, 2008 20:31:37 GMT -5
I agree with ajk. I had commented on that scene after it happened. The Goguryeans went into the whole situation intending to deceive the Turks in order to receive their help. They led the Turks to believe they would be handsomely rewarded and what made it worse was the fact that Mimosa made the statement that "unlike Tang, Goguryeans keep their word". To add insult to injury Gulsabiwu took back the money bag in exchange for keeping the Wolf's secret, which was not to tell anyone what had happened (sneaking into his tent unnoticed and tricking him). The statement "all's fair in love and war" doesn't apply in this particular situation. I think it's fine to trick the enemy but the Turks were not the enemy. What episode # was it? Where are the East Coasters in their viewing? Maybe they can clarify the situation...because i strongly recall the Turks not fully keeping their bargain but demanding more... When DJY asked the Turks for military asistance, the Turks were only halfway convinced. Mimosa offered them half of the fortune that they had left over if they agreed to help. Above all, the Turks were stupid for not asking how much money they would get... they assumed. I do not recall DJY/Mimosa "leading" them to believe there was a lot of money involved. He simply said that he would give them half of the fortune they had. He did not say how much they had with them, and the Turks did not ask. And yes, JP... later on, Gaepilsamon later confided to Tungso (his right-hand man) that he intended to take all of the fortune. On payment, he demanded the entire fortune and nothing less--- when surprised at the tiny pouch that was dropped in his hand, Mimosa pointed out that he had NOT asked as to how much money he would be recieving. So, it could be seen that Mimosa "tricked" the Turks, but really, the Turks tricked themselves... thus the price of greed.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jan 29, 2008 21:47:25 GMT -5
JP it was episode #69. You would expect underhanded behavior from them not the Goguryeans who were professing to being honest. We saw ep. #92 last week in PA. The "Goguryean" deception was really Mimosa's idea wasn't it? Mimosa technically is from Bekjae...but regardless of that, he's been shown on occasion to be willing to do "whatever it takes" to accomplish a goal. Even if it's something that Dae Jo Young would be against on moral grounds. It certainly makes the relationship between Mimosa & Dae Jo Young interesting, and makes Dae Jo Young's side less than perfect (but more realistic). --- Even though i don't agree with everyone on this topic, i love the conversation -- helping all of us to think & remember & care!
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Post by ajk on Jan 30, 2008 13:19:53 GMT -5
nalbal, you're correct that Mimosa did not “lead” the Turks to believe there was a lot of money involved. But they assumed it and he allowed them to believe it, and was very happy to do so. And yes they were stupid for not asking, but that’s beside the point. The Turks would not have fought and made such a huge sacrifice for the small amount that was actually present, as their reaction showed once they realized what happened. Moreover, whatever the Turks considered doing later on is irrelevant to what the Goguryeans did at the beginning. Allowing people to perform such a huge service for you and knowing that you have little or nothing to offer in return is not an honorable action, even if it might be a “fair” agreement.
These attempts to justify things in a legalistic sense, well, I’m sorry but I’m talking about honor here, which usually requires that people go above and beyond legalism. I have to wonder what the collective reaction to all this would have been if Shin Hong had pulled this kind of a stunt instead of the Goguryeans.
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Post by carla4100 on Jan 30, 2008 13:27:02 GMT -5
I want to make a comment about Episode 119. Sukyoung is jealousy of Geom and Chulin is going to run her crazy. She wanted DJY so bad now she have to put up with his baggage. I know that Chulin is hurting on the inside because it would bother me too to see the man I love parading around with another woman. Wonder the poor woman have not had a nervous breakdown by now. I would rather stay in the village myself so I wouldn't have to see this.
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Post by carla4100 on Jan 30, 2008 13:27:24 GMT -5
I want to make a comment about Episode 119. Sukyoung is jealousy of Geom and Chulin is going to run her crazy. She wanted DJY so bad now she have to put up with his baggage. I know that Chulin is hurting on the inside because it would bother me too to see the man I love parading around with another woman. Wonder the poor woman have not had a nervous breakdown by now. I would rather stay in the village myself so I wouldn't have to see this.
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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 30, 2008 14:06:53 GMT -5
I see your point Nalbal, that if the Turks wanted to know how much money was involved they should have asked. Gaepil and his tribe were known as thieves and bandits and obviously were greedy. Mimosa keep referring to the *fortune* and even to us, *fortune* implies more than just a couple bucks. Gaepil did plot with his men to take the whole fortune instead of the half they were offered. The troubling part is Mimosa knew that there was not much money involved and the Turks lost a lot of men in the battle and were not compensated at all. Mimosa made that comment about the Goguryeans keeping their word. Gulsabiwu took Gaepil hostage which was humiliating to him and Gaepil begged for them not to tell anyone about this. He had a reputation to uphold, he was the "Wolf of Madu". Biwu takes back the money bag and says they will keep the secret" but not for free". We already knew the character of the Turks but it wasn't what we'd expect from the Goguryeans. Maybe if the Turks hadn't lost all those men I'd feel differently. I respect your opinion and it just goes to show how we all get a little different perspective watching the same thing.
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Post by ajk on Jan 30, 2008 15:38:16 GMT -5
Thanks, tinkerbell, you put that better than I did. Yeah, I certainly didn’t mean to sound too heavy-handed about it towards anyone else, if it sounded that way. I appreciate everyone sharing their opinions about it and have learned a thing or two from them. Actually, it seems much less a question of agreeing or disagreeing than a matter of applying different sets of standards.
Anyway, I’ve been bugged by that episode ever since it aired but I’ll get off the soapbox about it now before anybody sends the Tang army after me, and we can move on to something less controversial. Like sex, politics or religion!
P.S. carla, you're right, I'm amazed that the two of them have managed to stay so cordial to each other with all of the baggage they're both carrying.
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 30, 2008 16:29:03 GMT -5
Never do what I did-- attempt to post a point in an arguement when you literally falling asleep at the keyboard (my apologies for my previous post... I re-read it this morning and I think I sounded a bit hard, which I never meant). Tinkerbell, you say it exactly how I wanted to say it (I couldn't seem to get my thoughts together). The Turks were rather foolish not to ask what they were getting for their trouble, but for the sake of honor Mimosa should have opened his mouth (I never really liked him-- he's a bit sneaky for my taste). Obviously DJY was desperate, otherwise he never would have resorted to such low tricks. Anyway, I’ve been bugged by that episode ever since it aired but I’ll get off the soapbox about it now before anybody sends the Tang army after me, and we can move on to something less controversial. Well, I'm hearing Li Kaigu from somewhere behind me, so I think I'll join you!
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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 30, 2008 17:32:26 GMT -5
Anyway, I’ve been bugged by that episode ever since it aired but I’ll get off the soapbox about it now before anybody sends the Tang army after me, and we can move on to something less controversial. Like sex, politics or religion! Good one ajk, that would lighten things up a lot.
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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 30, 2008 17:38:25 GMT -5
Well, I'm hearing Li Kaigu from somewhere behind me, so I think I'll join you! Sounds like a plan Nalbal.
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