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Post by MTR on Jan 24, 2008 19:20:36 GMT -5
I am at ep 117 and it struck me how DJY is always helping various people in fact many times over and what do they do ?try and stab him in the back . Going back to the earlier episodes when DJY saved Li Kaigu from execution how many times has DJY saved Kaigu since than and what does Kaigu do attack him or various Kogoryeon warriors /citizens . Many times i thought Chulin would have stood up for DJY but she always sides with the Khitan's So WHO IS THE BIGGEST INGRATE on this show ? Im going for Kaigu because in reality he should be on his knee's begging for thanks but nope he just waits until he gets himself together and off he goes murder in his heart ,he will even side with Tang or anybody but DJY and so much of his vengance seems ego driven ,egged on by Shin Hong another ingrate who has blinded the man(Kaigu ) to all sense of logic and reason .
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Post by vickieh on Jan 24, 2008 21:21:03 GMT -5
I am going to have to say Kaigu too. It is like domyoungchun said how many times has DJY saved his *** you know.
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aosy
New Addict
Posts: 26
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Post by aosy on Jan 25, 2008 7:10:51 GMT -5
I agree. DJY help him times and again but Li Kaigu always turn around and attack the Gogouryeans. There is one more person that I would like to add to the list and that is Muchol, the Turks that he had saved from Mt Guifu. If not for DJY, Muchol would have died in Mt Guifu and yet when he had no qualms in trying to take over DJY's territory.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jan 25, 2008 13:37:01 GMT -5
The "bald guy with scratchy voice" is Xue Jitou (i keep forgetting myself)...i wouldn't call him an ingrate..an opportunist at times (such as with Shin Hong), but generally loyal to Li Kaigu...and respectful of Heuk Sudol, at least at the end. i voted Sun Wanrong, because he had absolutely NO reason to have the Khan killed. Li Kaigu has some deep seeded resentment -- Dae Jo Young stole the woman he loved (did he know Chulin when they were kids?), and his family has had constant conflict with his own for years. Logically, he should be a bit more grateful, but i can understand his motivations. Until their end, i would also guest nominate Xue Rengui in regards to Hongpei. (kinda like Mr. Burns & Mr. Smithers)
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Post by ajk on Jan 25, 2008 17:30:27 GMT -5
Kaigu has benefitted from DJY time and again (and so has his wife, his son, and even his father-in-law), but he refuses to let all of that even enter his head and balance his personal vendettas. He should at least be looking at the complete picture. Yes, Shin Hong is messing with his head, but that’s beside the point.
However, for my money the biggest single display of ingratitude in the entire series—by FAR—was when Mimosa (presumably with the knowledge of DJY and maybe others) allowed Gaepilsamun and his tribe to think they’d be generously rewarded for fighting the Turks, only to screw them over after the Turks did their part and lost a lot of lives in the process. Not exactly a shining moment for the Goguryeans.
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Post by MTR on Jan 26, 2008 19:34:51 GMT -5
Sun Wanrong was really up there too after twice DJY saved him from being executed and what doe's he do ???sends his whole army under Kaigu to attack DJY at Ansi this after putting all the remaining refugee's from Koguryo into slave camps .
DJY and his army saved Khitan and protected them from Tang ,its a close call but Kaigu wins only by the amount of times DJY has saved him only to have Kaigu complain about the humiliation of being saved by DJY and than its back to the plotting board .
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Post by tinkerbell on Jan 26, 2008 20:17:19 GMT -5
ajk, are you talking about the episode when Gaepilsamun and his men were tricked to fight Li Wen or is there another scene I haven't seen yet? Just saw EP 92 on Friday night.
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kfan
Junior Addict
Posts: 85
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Post by kfan on Jan 27, 2008 6:37:04 GMT -5
I am not sure I would call them biggest ingrate. After all, fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me! There were times when I wished I could give DJY a good shake to get out of his pollyanna haze!
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Post by puppy on Jan 27, 2008 11:53:49 GMT -5
I read a couple of posts about Mimosa's shady move with the $$, ajk but Gaepilsamun and his homeboy (can't think of his name) were the ones who came to the conclusion that the purse had to be huge. Mimosa didn't say one way or the other. If somebody said to me, "Give me xyz and I'll pay you everything in my wallet." I'd sure as heck ask, "How much you got?" I think the Turks, seasoned warriors, should have known the risks of helping DJY, that they might lose significant manpower, but they went ahead anyway, blinded by greed. All's fair in love and war.
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Post by puppy on Jan 27, 2008 11:59:30 GMT -5
Oh, and my vote goes to Chulin just because she annoys me. I know she left DJY because she thought her father was going to be killed and I know she thought DJY was dead, but once everything was cool again, she should have left Kaigu for the father of her son, the man she had sworn to love until death and ever after. I'm only at Ep. 70 and I see from some spoilers that she sort of redeems herself later in the story, but for now, Chulin!
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Post by ajk on Jan 27, 2008 17:28:50 GMT -5
tinkerbell, yes, that's the scene I'm talking about.
puppy, I'm sorry but I guess we just don't see eye to eye on this one. The fact that the Turks were "seasoned warriors" is irrelevant. And yes, they should have asked Mimosa exactly what they'd be getting and it was stupid of them not to. But that's irrelevant too. My point is that Mimosa and the Gugoryeans received a huge, costly sacrifice from the Turks and gave them almost nothing in return. Whether or not you or I consider it "fair," it certainly was not honorable. And if there were any gratitude involved, the Goguryeans would have rewarded the Turks appropriately. Since the thread asks about ingratitude, this is a textbook example of it.
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sheila
Senior Addict
Posts: 297
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Post by sheila on Jan 27, 2008 20:05:37 GMT -5
Oh, and my vote goes to Chulin just because she annoys me. I know she left DJY because she thought her father was going to be killed and I know she thought DJY was dead, but once everything was cool again, she should have left Kaigu for the father of her son, the man she had sworn to love until death and ever after. I'm only at Ep. 70 and I see from some spoilers that she sort of redeems herself later in the story, but for now, Chulin! I didn't watch the entire series. But I saw the episode where Chulin and DJY met after a couple of years had passed. Chulin told him that she thought he died. And she didn't leave Kaigu because he protected Geom and loved him like he was his own son. She also asked DJY why he didn't stop her from marrying Li Kaigu. DJY only shook his head and didn't reply!
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Post by puppy on Jan 28, 2008 10:41:30 GMT -5
Thanks, Sheila. I guess Chulin wanted her son protected more than anything and how can I dislike a good mother, right? I saw the episode where she marries Kaigu and, if I'm not mistaken, DJY was a fugitive then (he's ALWAYS a fugitive) hiding under his flying saucer hat. He sneaks into the ceremony and watches in agony but can't do anything. I believe the couple is also congratulated at that point on the upcoming birth of a child so who knows what went thru his mind. And ajk, I understand your point about the $$. Maybe, when the Turks asked what they'd get for helping, Mimosa should have said something like, "We have nothing now but when Gorguyeo is a power again, we shall see your lands are returned to you..." etc. It would have made him more honorable. But I guess he's a strategist at heart and their wheels are always turning. This is a fun thread!
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Post by JP Paulus on Jan 28, 2008 11:16:36 GMT -5
Regarding Mimosa & the Wolf & the "deception"..if i remember correctly, "The Wolf" was the one breaking the deal, where he was trying to take ALL of the reward, rather than what was agreed upon. And if i remember right, the deal was to include getting DJY back, which they didn't do. i think if THEY had honored their part, and not been too greedy, Mimosa probably would have let the Wolf in on some stash that was NOT with them. They would've proven they were trustworthy at that point. As to why they would trust the Wolf later..i think it was a plot device. The Wolf was just meant for that short time, but when they extended the show, they made him part of the recurring cast. If you add up all the times he declared "i'm the Wolf of Mt. Madu", that must've have added up to a full episode!
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Post by ajk on Jan 28, 2008 11:52:21 GMT -5
I don't remember it unfolding like that at all, nor do I recall there being anything left to possibly offer the Turks later. But even if you're recalling it correctly, none of it is relevant to my point either. My point is that they went into that situation fully intending to screw the Turks over, knowing that they had little to offer and instead hoping that they could deceive the Turks into doing their bidding. It may have been a "fair" agreement, but it was not honorable.
And I'm not questioning the character of any of them, only saying that this was an incident that was far beneath their standards.
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