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Post by jochicago on Jan 9, 2008 10:40:38 GMT -5
Given the last episode, Li Kaigu has almost assumed the stature of a Shakespearean tragic hero. His hatred for DJY has finally grown larger than his love for Chulin and Geom, with tragic consequences. That hatred is destroying him -- literally, as it is due to this hatred that he takes out his own eye.
Here he accepts as his own the son of his most hated rival and grows to love him deeply. His love for Geom and Chulin is is his most noble aspect. But his hatred for DJY turns him not only against his ("adopted") country, Khitan, but against his wife and child and drives them into his enemy's camp. Now that hatred will cause him to try and destroy what he loves most, Geom, who still loves him.
Xui R (can't remember how to spell his name -- the great old Tang general) was write when he said that Li Kaigu was now a giant -- a giant of fierce hatred, willing to do anything to destroy his enemey -- even destroy himself, his most noble feelings, and that which he loves best.
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 10, 2008 17:41:11 GMT -5
Li Kaigu is definitely a tragic character. However, I would not go as far to say that he is a tragic hero. A hero to whom? He is so consumed with hate against a man who "dared" to fall in love with "his" girl almost 30 years ago that he would abandon his family and people, and turn to a country that destroyed them? And that he'd attack his own people, just so he could kill DJY and take the land they had chosen to rebuild Gorguryeo? What does he want the land for, anyway? If he's killing his own people on the battlefield, just who is the land going to hold? Himself and his generals? This guy is nuts!  I think we're going to see Kaigu get killed off very soon. There are only a few episodes left... |
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Post by puppy on Jan 10, 2008 18:11:18 GMT -5
In the strictest sense, a tragic hero is somebody noble and strong of character who has one fatal flaw that does him in. We're not so far along here in PA (but spoilers don't bother me) so I didn't know about the eye thing although it doesn't surprise me. Li kaigu has everything he needs to be great (son, wife, status) but his fatal flaw (hatred he won't let go of) keeps him ordinary. He can't get out of his own way.
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Post by captainscarlet1 on Jan 10, 2008 18:12:45 GMT -5
Li Kaigu is definitely a tragic character. However, I would not go as far to say that he is a tragic hero. A hero to whom? He is so consumed with hate against a man who "dared" to fall in love with "his" girl almost 30 years ago that he would abandon his family and people, and turn to a country that destroyed them? And that he'd attack his own people, just so he could kill DJY and take the land they had chosen to rebuild Gorguryeo? What does he want the land for, anyway? If he's killing his own people on the battlefield, just who is the land going to hold? Himself and his generals? This guy is nuts! I think we're going to see Kaigu get killed off very soon. There are only a few episodes left... I wholeheartedly agree! Tragic, yes....A hero? Not by a long shot....He had often shown a willingness to risk almost anything and everything in order to exact revenge....A man dominated by hatred is no hero.....I remember that episode where DJY requested additional troops from LKG in order to reinforce the front-line and LKG flatly refused, which of course, was in direct violation of the Khitan King's directive. DJY, after all, was now commander-in-chief of the combined Khitan-Goguryeon military force....I vividly remember Geom's reaction, how disgusted he was at his "father." Here, the Goguryeons were putting their lives on the line for Khitan and what "assistance" were they getting from LKG? I recall LKG expecting the Goguryeons to put up stiff resistance in checking the Tang army's advance, and inflicting massive casualties, but also suffering heavy losses, themselves. This would have put LKG in a better position to route the weakened Tang army, gaining fame for himself and putting the final nails in DJY's coffin....It didn't quite turn out that way....  |
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Post by ajk on Jan 11, 2008 16:21:50 GMT -5
Whatever we want to call him, I’m just very disappointed that the character has turned into a one-dimensional lunatic. I certainly hoped we’d see a final spectacular one-on-one confrontation between Kaigu and DJY, but now it wouldn’t even be a fair fight against a guy with one eye. And I just don’t buy the idea that someone with the presence of mind to talk back to the Tang emperor and give her the business—TWICE—would go so bonkers that he’d want to kill his own son and the Khitan soldiers who served under him and betray the love of his life just because of DJY. Maybe it’s just me, but it just doesn’t sit right.
The whole sequence of the last few episodes has been very disappointing. Remember, Kaigu had just slaughtered an entire Tang army that had laid down its arms to surrender to him. And we’re supposed to believe that Tang would turn right around put him at the head of another Tang army?! And we’re supposed to believe that the entire army would stand there passively while Kaigu and his small group of non-Tang “barbarians” executes the entire Tang high command?! When are they going to stop hitting us with these completely inconsistent plotlines. (At least there aren’t us any more scenes where Chulin shows up in the middle of nowhere at a dramatic moment....whoops, never mind!)
I had hoped that we’d be building to an exciting ending by now, but we don’t seem to be building, it’s simply more of the same. Too bad, because some of the human-drama scenes (DJY and Chulin’s discussion in #120, Kaigu and Goem in #122) have really been quite good.
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 12, 2008 8:54:49 GMT -5
In my previous post I said that Li Kaigu turned to a country that destroyed Khitan. What amazes me is that he really believes that DJY brought down Khitan, not Tang; in that sense, he felt justified going to Tang for help. DJY did not bring down Khitan, although it might be said that by delaying Li Kaigu, he aided in the speed of which Khitan fell to Tang forces. I always roll my eyes when Li Kaigu says "I cannot forgive him! He is responsible for destroying Khitan!"
No, bub-- you are responsible. You attacked Liadong Fort first with intentions of bringing it down, and yet you acted totally surprised when DJY came after you in a fury. Doh!
Li Kaigu has fooled himself so many times it's painful.
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Post by captainscarlet1 on Jan 12, 2008 12:51:42 GMT -5
In my previous post I said that Li Kaigu turned to a country that destroyed Khitan. What amazes me is that he really believes that DJY brought down Khitan, not Tang; in that sense, he felt justified going to Tang for help. DJY did not bring down Khitan, although it might be said that by delaying Li Kaigu, he aided in the speed of which Khitan fell to Tang forces. I always roll my eyes when Li Kaigu says "I cannot forgive him! He is responsible for destroying Khitan!" No, bub-- you are responsible. You attacked Liadong Fort first with intentions of bringing it down, and yet you acted totally surprised when DJY came after you in a fury. Doh! Li Kaigu has fooled himself so many times it's painful. It is easy to understand the origins of Li Kaigu's hatred and thirst for revenge....Among other things, he learned that his father had been "killed" by DJY's own father although judging from some of comments made in previous posts, he never did reveal to DJY that it was DJS who was "responsible" for General Bu Bigwang's death....Nor did Shin Hong ever reveal the truth when he was captured..... |
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Post by MTR on Jan 12, 2008 17:35:33 GMT -5
No tragic character at all for me ,we should consider all the people he killed ,how his own hatred for DJY led to the fall of Khitan but also he is stupid he never wised up to Shin ,he was not the greatest general having won most of his battles by brute force .
I cant think of this guy as Tragic Hero Sudol yes ,Geumlan yes but this guy nothing more than a vengance driven psycho .
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Post by claire on Jan 13, 2008 3:04:31 GMT -5
There is only one name I could give Li Kaigo- A very sad, luuunatic character. But the actor won an award. I don't know why? Gulsabiwu should have won an award and Mimosa.
claire
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Nalbal
Senior Addict
Yi Young-Nam is mine... live with it.
Posts: 297
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Post by Nalbal on Jan 15, 2008 17:09:43 GMT -5
Li Kaigu's mental and emotional state was named in last night's episode (#123): I believe it was Tungso who said "He's mad! Li Kaigu is mad!" And I don't think he is that far from the truth... Li Kaigu's hatred and rage has taken over his mind, and has literally left him mad.  |
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Post by jochicago on Jan 29, 2008 13:55:07 GMT -5
What I find fascinating about Li Kaigu is that his love for Chulin is all consuming -- and all forgiving. It is almost unbelievable. Despite the fact that she opposies him, allies with his mortal enemy (and her former lover) DJY, and says she woulf fight him to the death -- he still not only loves her, he will protect her! There is something noble -- or a little crazy -- about that.
DJY was willing to give up Chulin because of his devotion to his people and in pursuit of what he considered a higher goal (per the boards, as I didn't see those episodes). But Li Kaigu would give up everything for Chulin -- except his hatred of DJY. That's what makes him tragic. His greatest hatred ultimately destroys his greatest love.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Jan 29, 2008 22:45:17 GMT -5
What I find fascinating about Li Kaigu is that his love for Chulin is all consuming -- and all forgiving. It is almost unbelievable. Despite the fact that she opposies him, allies with his mortal enemy (and her former lover) DJY, and says she woulf fight him to the death -- he still not only loves her, he will protect her! There is something noble -- or a little crazy -- about that. DJY was willing to give up Chulin because of his devotion to his people and in pursuit of what he considered a higher goal (per the boards, as I didn't see those episodes). But Li Kaigu would give up everything for Chulin -- except his hatred of DJY. That's what makes him tragic. His greatest hatred ultimately destroys his greatest love. DJY and Chulin were separated by circumstances too convoluted to go into here. Apart from that, I'm in full agreement concerning the character of Li Kaigu and Chulin. He loved her since they were children---she is ALL he has. And yet he is so crazy with hate for Dae JY that he betrays his own people. It's a twist that is a disappointment, but then real life is like that too. How many of us know people who utterly destroy their own lives because they won't see reason? |
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Post by ligeomlover on Jan 30, 2008 22:30:07 GMT -5
Oh I know.
They've turned Li kaigu into one crazy... person.
I would have never imagined Li kaigu would stab his eye out to join forces with Tang Chinese ><
I kinda feel bad for him and all... But still... He betrayed DJY's trust not once, but Twice!
>.> You just don't get away with that!
I know he has lots of Pride and Honor, but DJY saved his ass... He really treats DJY for crap
for all the things he has done for him.
DJY did not destroy Khitan anyways, they need to get that through their heads!
It's Khitan's fault for betraying DJY's trust and trying to destroy Liaodong.
Then the ending, I don't think Li Geom will do a rebellious thing and destroy Dae Joyoung.
._. anyways ... yea.
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Post by MTR on Jan 31, 2008 16:57:28 GMT -5
Actually he has betrayed DJY at least 4/5 times starting in an early episode when DJY saved him from being beheaded by Li Wen .
In short he is a perfidious untrustworthy low life .
Also his rep as a general should really be called into question considering the amount of battles he has lost ,not to mention the times he has lost his whole army in fact his military atributes are a joke and more fool Xue for constantly giving this man another army to lose .
The only one who seems to have this military flop figured out is Wu Zetian ,she just sighs and shakes her head everytime he gets another chance ,considering the number of soldiers that have died under his command im surprised he could even get a valet let alone an army .
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