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Post by Candylover on Jun 8, 2007 5:17:41 GMT -5
Cheonson, now I understand that your postings on korean history are based on Shin Chae-Ho's view of history. But unfortunately, this Chicago board does not seem to be a good place to talk about Korean history based on a specific view of history (for example, Shin Chae-Ho's view). I suspect that most people here who have little or no knowledge of Korean history are interested rather in facts of Korean history than views of Korean history, and if you want to talk about Shin Chae-Ho's view of Korean history, you could find other better Korean groups on the internet.
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Post by cheonson on Jun 9, 2007 20:24:20 GMT -5
Cheonson, now I understand that your postings on korean history are based on Shin Chae-Ho's view of history. But unfortunately, this Chicago board does not seem to be a good place to talk about Korean history based on a specific view of history (for example, Shin Chae-Ho's view). I suspect that most people here who have little or no knowledge of Korean history are interested rather in facts of Korean history than views of Korean history, and if you want to talk about Shin Chae-Ho's view of Korean history, you could find other better Korean groups on the internet. I didn't want to make this site a Korean history site but I wanted to let the audience help undersand the drama better having more information about korean history. - as I find information when I see western history based dramas. By the way, what Shin Chae Ho says in his book is a very common knowledge. It is not his own unique view on Korean history. And what he said about Manchu is NOT his creation. He says he got it from books of Koryeo. We Korean schools don't includ histories of Xiabei as Korean history but no one would deny that it derived from Dongyi (DanGun Josun). The thing about the relationship between Xiabei and Korea is not his own VIEW, it is historical fact. It is your choice wheather you includ the hisotry of Xiabei as Korean history or not, but you can't deny it also derived from ancient Korea. Whatever each tribe is called today, they all eventually trace back to one root, Dongyi. THIS IS MY LAST COMMENT ON THIS THREAD.
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Post by Candylover on Jun 9, 2007 23:45:45 GMT -5
It is your choice wheather you includ the hisotry of Xiabei as Korean history or not, but you can't deny it also derived from ancient Korea. It is your choice wheather you include the hisotry of Xiabei as Korean history or not, but you can't deny it is not what Korean textbooks or historians generally say.Now that you have admitted that you are saying what Korean textbooks or historians generally do not say, it is no use arguing the question further. I just hope you will be aware that I'm not saying that you should stop saying your opinions, but I'm saying you should have been more careful to the people who have little knowledge of Korean history.
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Post by skinz on Jun 12, 2007 8:47:47 GMT -5
Thanks Ginny for the link.
I agree with Candylover on this one, foreign people watching korean historical dramas are not thinking about origins of tribes but the story of the era in which the show is based upon.
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Post by chigirl68 on Jun 12, 2007 8:57:45 GMT -5
Thanks for that link Ginnycat. I remember seeing that before and forgot about it. Nice to have this to review again.
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Post by consoleman on Jun 13, 2007 2:12:20 GMT -5
Actually cheonson info is acurate or at least creditable.
The whole problem happended after war between Qing Dynasty (last dynasty of china) and Japan (Meji Era). As most of know, they both tries to control over Korea.
You ask average chinese & japanese about Korea, they don't seem to know anything about it that's because both China & Japan heavely owe to Korea. If you look at the 17th~18th century Nth-east Asia, Korea (Jeoson Dynasty) were oldest surviving dynasty, thus Korea was like Grandpa country compared to modern Japan and Chin Empire.
Just before Japanese occupation 1910, It was Qing Dynasty who claimed ownership over Korea and Chinese historian & scholars heavily distorted their own Chinese classic to make them selves more older & bolder than Korea. At this time, most creditable records were either stolen, or distorted or even disapeared.
Then Japan won the war against China, and Korean became their turf, and this when japanese also distroy creditable records and distorted Korean history so that Japan may looks have older history.
So all Korea left with limited records, most detailed records are still held by japanese. and some are held by Chinese.
Both scholars from Japan & China studied Korean history and now they are trying to include Korean history as their own history. Thus, Korea become part of them.
It's simple duve & conqure strategy played by Chinese & Japanese.
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Post by consoleman on Jun 13, 2007 2:15:56 GMT -5
I mean divide & conqure
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Post by cheonson on Jun 13, 2007 9:11:52 GMT -5
Actually cheonson info is acurate or at least creditable. The whole problem happended after war between Qing Dynasty (last dynasty of china) and Japan (Meji Era). As most of know, they both tries to control over Korea. You ask average chinese & japanese about Korea, they don't seem to know anything about it that's because both China & Japan heavely owe to Korea. If you look at the 17th~18th century Nth-east Asia, Korea (Jeoson Dynasty) were oldest surviving dynasty, thus Korea was like Grandpa country compared to modern Japan and Chin Empire. Just before Japanese occupation 1910, It was Qing Dynasty who claimed ownership over Korea and Chinese historian & scholars heavily distorted their own Chinese classic to make them selves more older & bolder than Korea. At this time, most creditable records were either stolen, or distorted or even disapeared. Then Japan won the war against China, and Korean became their turf, and this when japanese also distroy creditable records and distorted Korean history so that Japan may looks have older history. So all Korea left with limited records, most detailed records are still held by japanese. and some are held by Chinese. Both scholars from Japan & China studied Korean history and now they are trying to include Korean history as their own history. Thus, Korea become part of them. It's simple duve & conqure strategy played by Chinese & Japanese. I don't know why this thread has changed into a debate on the East Asian tribes but anyway as someone said above, it wouldn't be so important that the fact that Tang was a dynsty of Xiabei who doesn't have anything to do with Han-Chinese people for the Dae Jo Young fans abroad. For them, the Important thing is that Tang and Koguryeo are enemys each other at that period and how the story is going on. And consoleman, I think the truth is that Han-Chinese ethnic is mysterious one which has been converted and that Japanese is a son of Korea. And the fact that their origins are ambiguous made them need ancient Korean history to cover their historical weakness. Natiions and the peoples that have their own unique and glorious history and civilization are not envy of others. - they are proud of their own and happy enough with their own. You know they even claim that Ghenghis Khan who made Han-Chinese people slaves for centuries is also Chinese. As making him Chinese, they seem to think that they can erase the bitter memory (one of the slavery periodes) and can own their own world hero. By the way can I point out your mistake? I think you shouldn't call Ching(post-Kim dynasty) dynasty of China - no Koreans consider it Chinese dynasty. Ching is a tribe of Korea and it was destoried by its enemy, Ming people. Not that Ming people united it, they occupied it by force. Han-chinese government and the people don't treat Ching descendants as their own people. They are aliens.
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Post by consoleman on Jun 15, 2007 9:30:27 GMT -5
It's True that Ching or Qin Dynasty was founded by descents of Yojin or Mohe tribes (aka Jurchen) after Khitan rule became weak in manchuria. I would say, they were also part of big Koreana family tree (aka proto-Koreans).
However, most manchus or mohe tribes became assimilated to Chinese, gradually Han-chinese took control over Chinese empire. It's also tue that both Japanese & Han-Chinese origins are grey and suspicious and they are trying to includes ancient Korean history into theirs. Btw, many scholars & historian from Ching or Qin dynasty era are largely dominated by Han-chinese and this is why many of their historic documents are untrust worthy and same goes for Japanese records. Their records are bias and contradiction to many of their claims. Which mean it was distorted.
At the moment Chinese scholras & historian don't care about their actual historical records because they know it would make them more difficult to assimilate Korean history into theirs. If they actually take their historical records into their history projects, they will have to accept Korean history not Han-Chinese history. But China is now claiming their nation is not just Han-Chinese, they are already saying Mongols, Vietnamese, Tibetans, Koreans, Manchus, Khitans, Ughurs as broad Chinese. Which is crazy because we all know where this heading. Ofcourse they are trying to make them selves master of all asian, so that they will become envy of whole world.
This is dirty tactics played by Chinese, so that whole world become their slaves. Our ancestors fought to have our own rights and freedom. We should carry this spirit and fight the Chinese.
Let's stop the Chinese invasion. There is old Chinese saying; "If you can't win, them join them". Well this might be Chinese minds, they telling us to join them, but we shall not join them because we can beat them as our ancestor did beat them before.
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