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Post by sunami chun on Jan 24, 2006 17:59:46 GMT -5
PRLA, I still don't get your point then....because if china wasn't responsible for her choices, and bad choices as a matter of fact, who is responsible? If your government wasn't able to predict possible iminent threats, they were not only blind, but deaf and unable to speak....living inside the bubble, pretty much as korea....or should they think, "look this is a free world and nobody has the right to invade my country, i don't want drugs and bad influences to my people" (actually i think your vision of the world is either too white or too black because there were drugs, religious conflicts, corruption in china much before the europeans) anyway isn't this a choice your country made and should be responsible for all that happened because of it...or do you really think that you, represented by your politicians/government, had nothing to do with all the current events? That don't matter the choice you make nobody can complain of it because it's your point of view right? For me this is very arrogant and selfish and many people would feel angry towards this kind of stance and also act aggressively.....
thanks for correcting me Tim and by the way i'm a "He"
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Post by Tim on Jan 24, 2006 20:17:53 GMT -5
I agree with Sunami chun, and sorry that i mistake ur gender. Anyways, let me ask PRLA a question: Why do you work for society? Why do you go out and buy food? You said China has the right to lock herself up, and so do you. You don't have to work for your boss. You don't have to buy other farmer's produce. You can just lock yourself up in your own little world, growing your own little crops for the rest of your life. You don't do that because it's stupid and the obvious thing for survival is to open up with the outside world. I agree with you that China can open or close her door if she wants, but really, when it comes to survival... you really don't have a choice. You want to eat uranium or vegetables? Uranium will give you brain tumor, but vegetables have many healthy nutrients. No one's stopping you from eating uranium, but if you really want to... go ahead. That was China back then.
And one other thing Sumani Chun pointed out, you said that there are bad politicians everywhere, right? Then why do you act as though China never had any bad politician?
Pu Yi was a traitor, bottom line. I know it wouldn't easy decision, but the fact that he worked for an enemy nation without hesitation proved that he was very selfish and didn't care for his people. He did not deserve to be the emperor of China. He cared for himself, and not his people. You seem to be avoiding the point; Pu Yi is NOT an ordinary citizen of China. He was the RULER of China, and for a ruler to be so careless and selfish, he was definately not a good ruler, and he was also a traitor to the Chinese because he worked for the Japanese.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 25, 2006 1:21:30 GMT -5
tim, how old are you?
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Post by Tim on Jan 25, 2006 19:54:50 GMT -5
Um... does that really matter?? I am very young, still haven't gotten my bachelor's degree yet... I don't want to reveal too much info online...
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Post by PRLA on Jan 25, 2006 23:36:33 GMT -5
PRLA, I still don't get your point then....because if china wasn't responsible for her choices, and bad choices as a matter of fact, who is responsible? If your government wasn't able to predict possible iminent threats, they were not only blind, but deaf and unable to speak....living inside the bubble, pretty much as korea....or should they think, "look this is a free world and nobody has the right to invade my country, i don't want drugs and bad influences to my people" (actually i think your vision of the world is either too white or too black because there were drugs, religious conflicts, corruption in china much before the europeans) anyway isn't this a choice your country made and should be responsible for all that happened because of it... China,historically has been attacked many times over by foreign invaders. So You can understand their mistrust towards opening its doors to trade with foreigners. Therefore it made sense to not openly trade with others outside of your country. It is foreigners responsibility to not mistreat china while trying to create open trade among the two countries. Unfortunately,history did not do things this way. So again it made sense to close things off. or do you really think that you, represented by your politicians/government, had nothing to do with all the current events? That don't matter the choice you make nobody can complain of it because it's your point of view right? For me this is very arrogant and selfish and many people would feel angry towards this kind of stance and also act aggressively..... Of course i don't always like what representative politicians do. But there is not much that can be done about it. Must just live life and carry on. I'm not certain,But it sounds like you are taken in by political propaganda of your country... Anyways, let me ask PRLA a question: Why do you work for society? Why do you go out and buy food? You said China has the right to lock herself up, and so do you. You don't have to work for your boss. You don't have to buy other farmer's produce. You can just lock yourself up in your own little world, growing your own little crops for the rest of your life. One works for society to gain some self spiritual enrichment. One goes out to buy food to eat or to snack on. One usually works for a boss. But not everyone must work for a boss. Some people can actually be a boss themselves. One does not need to lock ones self unless they have committed a crime against laws. You don't do that because it's stupid and the obvious thing for survival is to open up with the outside world. I agree with you that China can open or close her door if she wants, but really, when it comes to survival... you really don't have a choice. You want to eat uranium or vegetables? Uranium will give you brain tumor, but vegetables have many healthy nutrients. No one's stopping you from eating uranium, but if you really want to... go ahead. That was China back then. Not so true. Just because there is no free world trade economy,does not mean you will starve. In some cases,a local economy can be more stable. A world economy may allow for more income. But there is also a possibility of inheriting too much debt as well. So having world trade is not good in all cases. Far as eat uranium versus vegetables, no idea what your talking about... And one other thing Sumani Chun pointed out, you said that there are bad politicians everywhere, right? Then why do you act as though China never had any bad politician? No. Sumani Chun made a general statement about all politicians being evil. But thats not the case at all. There are some good to honest ones out there. But short and few. Pu Yi was a traitor, bottom line. I know it wouldn't easy decision, but the fact that he worked for an enemy nation without hesitation proved that he was very selfish and didn't care for his people. He did not deserve to be the emperor of China. He cared for himself, and not his people. You seem to be avoiding the point; Pu Yi is NOT an ordinary citizen of China. He was the RULER of China, and for a ruler to be so careless and selfish, he was definately not a good ruler, and he was also a traitor to the Chinese because he worked for the Japanese. Pu Yi was not a trader. Japan already had control of the country. Japan could have killed him and his family on the spot. But they gave him two choices. one is to die with the rest of his people. Or two,to be the puppet leader of his people with japan as representation. Pu yi had a family and did what he could to ensure their safety. He went into survival mode. If you had a family,I think you would do the same. Um... does that really matter?? I am very young, still haven't gotten my bachelor's degree yet... I don't want to reveal too much info online... Wow ok. I think you need to experience life alittle more before you decide to judge what others believe in.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 26, 2006 10:02:27 GMT -5
I´ve imagined that you were very young, i had much more time to study history, that is one of my majors ...anyway i think you are very conscious, open hearted to learn and have good premisses to understand that this world is not made of unknown and useless hate but understanding and if you don´t have the will to participate actively on events you are at least aware that there is something called correctness that Yi Soon Shin showed gladly not only to koreans but also to you, and don´t matter what we do in this life or not do we are actively being part of it even when you only got an opinion, that can change the way you think and of many other people. PRLA, i don´t understand why u are so angry, and everytime i try to get your point i just misses it because of it, u just refutes the arguments and really it doesn´t add nothing, u are doing exactly what i´m trying to explain what koreans are doing about this issue, you said "I'm not certain,But it sounds like you are taken in by political propaganda of your country..." what do you know about me outside of what I say here in this board? What kind of argument do you want me to use against this useless affirmation? well (maybe) see you guys in another thread....i´m leaving
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Post by Tim on Jan 26, 2006 19:36:10 GMT -5
Why leave, sunami chun?
Ok, so I don't have much life experience as you do, PRLA (probably), but I do know that the world isn't black and white. You still haven't answered why there are no evil Chinese politicians.
I still don't understand why closing a country off is considered a good thing. Had China opened her doors, she could have learned about the Western methods of war and most likely would have beat back the Imperialists. Let's look at Japan, who is a perfect example. Japan isolated herself, but what does she do later? She learned Western science and technology, and nearly annhilated the Russians. What does China do? She sits back and believes that swords and arrows are enough to defend herself while the enemies are charging forwards with bombs, motorized vehicles, guns, etc.
Japan conquered China? I never knew that. Japan conquered some parts of China, but not all. If I were Pu Yi, I would know that all further resistance is meaningless and that I have no reason to live. I believe YSS drama series showed it themselves: Two Korean princes were captured by the Japanese, but the Koreans said that they cannot sacrifice the lives of two princes for the whole country. Is it really fair that the whole China should surrender just because Pu Yi's family was in dangered?
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Post by ginnycat5 on Jan 26, 2006 22:44:50 GMT -5
Maybe I shouldn't butt in when I hardly know anything, but Pu Yi was a captive, wasn't he, along with rest of his country? I didn't have the impression that he was kidnapped and the ransom was the surrender of China. Didn't Japan overrun the part of China that the government was in? That contrasts with Korea having a conquered part and a free part, where the government was, giving the government a choice in whether or not to surrender for the sake of the princes.
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Post by Tim on Jan 27, 2006 0:56:08 GMT -5
When the Japanese took Pu Yi and conquered his homeland of Manchuria, he knew it was over. China was not over, because she still had her own government, just that monarchy ended. There were the Nationalists, led by Sun Yat-sen (Sun Zhong Shan, not sure what his name in Cantonese is spelled). I know it wouldn't have been easy (or you could even say impossible) for Pu Yi to win back his empire, but the fact that he sided with the Japanese and help the Japanese kill his own people is unforgivable.
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Post by PRLA on Jan 27, 2006 4:47:23 GMT -5
PRLA, i don´t understand why u are so angry, and everytime i try to get your point i just misses it because of it, u just refutes the arguments and really it doesn´t add nothing, u are doing exactly what i´m trying to explain what koreans are doing about this issue, you said "I'm not certain,But it sounds like you are taken in by political propaganda of your country..." what do you know about me outside of what I say here in this board? What kind of argument do you want me to use against this useless affirmation? Dear sunami chun I am not angry. I have no clue why you think that? I rarely use smilies as i hate using them. Also i didn't refute all your ideas. Infact i agreed with most of what you have written. About the politics. I was concerned when you wrote this statement. ["or do you really think that you, represented by your politicians/government, had nothing to do with all the current events? That don't matter the choice you make nobody can complain of it because it's your point of view right? For me this is very arrogant and selfish and many people would feel angry towards this kind of stance and also act aggressively...."] I didn't want to acuse you of being taken in by political propaganda. Therefore i used the term sounds like. Instead of is or are. but I do know that the world isn't black and white. You still haven't answered why there are no evil Chinese politicians. Not trying to anger you or anything. Just want to bring a point from your quote bellow. "I know it wouldn't have been easy (or you could even say impossible) for Pu Yi to win back his empire, but the fact that he sided with the Japanese and help the Japanese kill his own people is unforgivable." This to me sounds more like a black and white statement. I never said there were no corrupt politicians. But evil politicians? again they are not all bad. I still don't understand why closing a country off is considered a good thing. Had China opened her doors, she could have learned about the Western methods of war and most likely would have beat back the Imperialists. Let's look at Japan, who is a perfect example. Japan isolated herself, but what does she do later? She learned Western science and technology, and nearly annhilated the Russians. What does China do? She sits back and believes that swords and arrows are enough to defend herself while the enemies are charging forwards with bombs, motorized vehicles, guns, etc. A local economy is more stable. local funds are not leaving the country. less debt to be owed. Of course everything has downsides as well as benefits. I would recommend you take an economics coarse. A fully open door, would have resulted in foreign powers enslaving the chinese. Look what happened to china,when mongolia came in. Foreign powers were responsible for forcing china's doors open through physical force. Japan was also threaten with physical force by europe when it didn't want its doors open. Eventually japan's fear took over and doors open.. what flooded in? European morals and religiously oppressive views.(shinto was being slowly banned) STD's and the mentality that europeans were to be regarded as gods I believe YSS drama series showed it themselves: Two Korean princes were captured by the Japanese, but the Koreans said that they cannot sacrifice the lives of two princes for the whole country. It was the kings magistrate that decided if it was good to rescue the captured princes or not.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 27, 2006 10:48:25 GMT -5
I´ve never said all politicians are bad, just that ethics and politics have different conceptions, maybe if you read "Macchiavel" that is the basis of politics as science and object of study you will understand it better. Actually democracy and modern politics is a western world legacy as you all know but the concept of government in Asia, specially in China and Korea before the contact with the West, was a special kind of monarchy, not absolutist as many people may think, and as you all could see in the soap opera the king was maintained inside the palace doing mainly rituals and had many control mechanisms, one of them being the royal historians that recorded and policed the government and kings actions (and even if they hadn´t power to impeach or to act against wrong doings by the king, they were avoided, you must remember that the shame that mistakes could cause to his government would stain his name for centuries and his lineage also, what was a extremely cared belief because of confucionism) and specially the factions that can be compared to the modern political parties. Also there was a huge burocracy that was created by merythocratic system and helped the government to manage the country. So it is not only the kings fault, or the high echelons of the power but since all the nation was some what envolved in the management of the country you can blame people for being so careless. I Think DO-san menthality explain it very well it, the people are the basis of any government and if they are blind who can save them against possible hard times?
About your economics point of view u should know that we live in a neo-liberal world and there isn´t something like local economy, everything is intertwined. And this term is not so new because back then china could only maintain its empire thru commerce, they were not entirely closed off as you may think, silk route as exemple that was runned by arabs...what Zheng He could do is to open new routes directly thru out the world and spread chinese culture instead of european.
So it is so hard to understand that your country made choices? and they win or lose with these choices? That there are responsabilities that are born by every action you take? And when you depare with some hard times shouldn´t you be thinking of your country and not blinding yourself with fake pride that arises stupid nationalism smartly manageable by greedy people and politicians and causes more wars? Shouldn´t we the people, the basis of any government do our part and try to prevent it even if in an internet board forum?
we can discuss history for years, argueing what caused what and go deep into whose fault was all this, but that was never my intention and that´s why i´m leaving.
For who loves Korea; quoting Meng Tzu:(mencius), "when heaven is going to give someone (maybe a nation) a great responsability, it will forge your soul thru hard suffering...". Don´t matter if we made many mistakes and led Korea to suffer hard thru out its history, but is our choice to make it worthy or to become a bittered nation full of fake pride. I don´t expect it to happen all of a sudden but i expect we don´t forget our legacy (thanks for doing a soup opera about the great admiral). And this is a personal choice that will never be wrong or that we will never be ashamed of....
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Post by Tim on Jan 28, 2006 20:05:08 GMT -5
About my Pu Yi quote, yes, it was a bit selfish, but how can a person who sacrifices the lives of other people to gain comfort himself not be called selfish? On an earlier post, you said I praised Westerners that invaded China; If you are so patriotic, then why are you defending TRAITORS to China?
Economics isn't my subject (and I will take what you said about taking economics class into consideration), so I won't argue anymore about that in case I sound like a fool.
Your Japan arguement isn't strong enough. You said that everything has downslides too, right? Then that was the downslide of Japan opening her doors. HOWEVER, look at the bright side of what happened to Japan... world power, and still is til today (second only to America).
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Post by PRLA on Jan 29, 2006 3:06:17 GMT -5
About my Pu Yi quote, yes, it was a bit selfish, but how can a person who sacrifices the lives of other people to gain comfort himself not be called selfish? On an earlier post, you said I praised Westerners that invaded China; If you are so patriotic, then why are you defending TRAITORS to China? Easy. It is called panic survival mode. When your given few options in a situation, You too would do something in order to survive.. Your Japan argument isn't strong enough. You said that everything has downslides too, right? Then that was the downslide of Japan opening her doors. HOWEVER, look at the bright side of what happened to Japan... world power, and still is til today (second only to America). This is not an argument. It is suppose to be a discussion. But yes japan has developed like many other countries. Japans world power was never realistic. Mainly for the fact that it felt superior over other countries. It has also tried to use its hard power on more than one occasion. Even now, japan chooses to embrace nationalistic imperialism once again. Also,Japan is not as strong an economic power now. It is china whom is rapidly growing in economic strength these days.
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Post by Tim on Jan 30, 2006 1:54:29 GMT -5
PRLA, do you know who the ex-president of Taiwan was, Li Deng Hui? Will you say his actions were the same as Pu Yi? Do you support Taiwanese and Tibetan independence? After all, China had no right to invade Tibet and claim Taiwan (although I know that Chen Shui Bian and other DPP people are actually Han descendants).
I know Japan is a declining country, but it is still the second best. China's economy has not yet beaten Japan's yet. One can say the same for America. America is declining with all those illegal immigrants and big mistakes such as Iraq War. America was an Imperialist, too. She didn't really contribute to European affairs beforehand, but during the age of Imperialism, she did, and just like Japan, America fluorished.
And one last thing, are you against the fact that the Communists are opening up to the world? The fact that they learned stuff from the Imperialists? You are using a computer to type your replies, right? Wasn't the computer invented by an Imperialist?
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Post by PRLA on Jan 30, 2006 21:19:32 GMT -5
PRLA, do you know who the ex-president of Taiwan was, Li Deng Hui? Will you say his actions were the same as Pu Yi? Don't know. Not sure. Do you support Taiwanese and Tibetan independence? I do not support or support them. It is an internal matter. I am not there,so i don't care either way.. IMHO If they want independence,then they should work things out. Flaunting acts of independence does not work. Both of them need to be more humble and open a dialogue for discussion. After all, China had no right to invade Tibet and claim Taiwan (although I know that Chen Shui Bian and other DPP people are actually Han descendants). Your above Quote is rather ironic. Tibet historically invaded and took over parts of china too. Hard to say who is right and who is wrong. You know japan had invaded and occupied taiwan too right? Curently Japan is also claiming taiwan and islands near china as its own too? But instead of getting mad,Taiwan supports japan. Go figure? I know Japan is a declining country, but it is still the second best. China's economy has not yet beaten Japan's yet. Yes japan is declining in a slower rate than others. You know why? It is because they still have a domestic economy. They do allow some forms of free world trade. It is not exactly competitive. because japan chooses to imposes high tariffs on any imported goods. Other times they play politics by making excuses to ban products. And one last thing, are you against the fact that the Communists are opening up to the world? Why would i? It is a world market now. They can choose this path if they wish. It may help to break social barriers. One can say the same for America. America is declining with all those illegal immigrants and big mistakes such as Iraq War. America was an Imperialist, too. She didn't really contribute to European affairs beforehand, but during the age of Imperialism, she did, and just like Japan, America fluorished. Its not nice to talk about immigrants that way. You sound exactly like the current japanese emperor. He made such comments towards immigrants and black people in america. Not all of them are bad of course. They did not make any war decisions. It was president Bush that chose to wage war. America helped great Britain to fight the germans in ww1. Before getting attacked by japan in ww2,it supplied allies with supplies.
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