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Post by sunami chun on Jan 19, 2006 16:07:37 GMT -5
My bad, i´ve just read this post that was from six months ago and found out many people who think like i do and this is just great!!!!!.......quoting what Michael posted bout Do San i couldn´t agree more.....the next post from Alana is great too!!! They could explain what i feel much better than me... deiner.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=generalmsgs&action=display&thread=1093478613&page=3For lack of guidance a nation falls.. - Prov. 11:14 I'm more of an optimistic generalist, and not a pessimist. If you're a Korean, you should know that I strongly believe that Do-san (Ahn Chang-ho 1878~1938, an educator) "mentality" can help Koreans head to right direction. For anyone interested in what Ahn Chang-ho taught... Core teachings: Truth, Love and Service Four values of Do-san mentality: 1. Mu-sil (Honesty): Stop lying, love truth and respect transparency. 2. Yuk-hang (Action/work): Show with actions rather than words, and be persistent towards the goal. 3. Choong-eu (Faithful/Trust): Be faithful, loyal and devoted in all you do; be completely trustworthy 4. Yong-gaum (Courage): Be determined and progressive in all things, take initiatives. Love: Learning how to love somebody else based on trust. He taught that one should not only develop the heart, but be able to express and carry it into action. Service: Be able to differentiate between the private and the public and know what is important and what isn't. Some quotes... "Do not lie, even if it means your life." "Do not lie even as a joke. If you lost faithfulness in your dream then weep and repent." "Lies! You're the enemy which killed my country! I will not lie even if I have to die of it." "Just as an apple comes from an apple tree, and a pear from a pear tree, a fruit of independence is bore from a people who are competent to be indepedent, and a fruit of slavery is bore from a people who are qualified to be enslaved." "It's easier to fight and win over a thousand soldiers and ten thousand horses than to win over our own habits, therefore we must keep at it for the rest of our lives." "Do you love your country? Then be a sound character first. If you have compassion for the illnesses of people then you become a doctor first. If you can't become a doctor then heal yourself first to be a healthy person." "The reason why there aren't any man of character among us is that there aren't anyone who's determined and working to become one. If you're lamenting that there aren't any man of character, then why aren't you studying to become one yourself?" "All the achievements of the world is the product of energy. You achieve less with less energy and more with more energy. If there's no energy you can't achieve anything. Therefore, if anyone wants to achieve a certain goal one must find the source of that energy first." "I plead only this: build your strength, build your strength." "Whether I eat or sleep, I've done them for the independence of Korea. This will not change until I disappear." "All great achievements start small, therefore with the most difficult things you have to start solving the smallest things first." "If God comes to you at any time and asks you, 'What are you doing?' Be able to say, 'I'm doing something.'" (Don't be an idler.)
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 19, 2006 16:46:53 GMT -5
"Be able to differentiate between the private and the public and know what is important and what isn't." definitely it is unimportant to think in what others did to us, it is equaly necessary to differentiate what is hatred (personal) from what is fact (public). "Lies! You're the enemy which killed my country! I will not lie even if I have to die of it." aren´t we lying to ourselves? why focus on what they did to us? aren´t we blinding ourselves with cheap self affirmation we have so many real and substancial things to be proud of. sry to keep the discussion about the same subject going so long but my 2 cents became 4 with this finding....
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Post by Tim on Jan 19, 2006 20:59:05 GMT -5
I am Chinese, and yes, I'm from Taiwan. You talked to mainlanders and they told you that they conquered people? That's a change. At least they are starting to admit things... before, they wouldn't even admit that they conquered people... blah, anyways... erm, yeah. I don't really see what's the point in me admitting that the Chinese conquered smaller ethnics. If you're saying that it is the same thing as the Japanese did... well, it is sort of similar, but sort of not. True, minorities were persecuted and looked down upon, but isn't that the same in every country? America does the same thing. They were not kind to the Natives when they expand the west. Every country does that to minorities.
The key thing here is that the Han people don't glorify their atrocities, or worse, WORSHIP them in a sacred temple. Recently, the governors of China are trying to unite all the ethnics in China through friendship, but this certainly isn't what Japan is doing. Japan is brainwashing their own people that killing and invading other nations is ok. They are not in the least remorseful about their past crimes.
You can bring up points about the Chinese do the same, but that's actually beyond the point. What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. If a beggar is dying of hunger and he steals a bread and is caught, should he be left free? No, of course not. He broke the law. When people do wrong things, they should apologize or feel remorseful for their wrongdoings. This isn't a matter of who did more bad stuff, in fact, that's pretty childish. If you do something wrong, you should apologize and or try to make up for it. It doesn't matter if the other person did the same crime.
Seeing that you quote from the Bible, I am assuming you are Christian. Well, isn't it true that when Jesus was being persecuted, there were two robbers being crucified with him? The first one begged for forgiveness, but the other one justified his wrongoings and was not remorseful. The first criminal didn't care that the other criminal was acting all tough; he knew that he had done the wrong thing, and he apologized.
Hope this all made sense.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 20, 2006 12:25:24 GMT -5
sry i didn´t mean to offend you but what i was asking is if china is a congregation of nations, races and ethnies or is a han empire, i was not pointing fingers to you and maybe you understood wrong cause of the thread above about china, but it has nothing to do what i think about china.... i´m asking you this because in another thread i´ve posted that since china is a congregation of many nations, i even compared china to brazil with its culture assimilation aspect that i think is very interesting. About japan it really doesn´t matter to me as for what i care it could be zaire or timor that came to korea and did atrocities because the thruth doesn´t lie on others, and if they want to lie it is their problem not ours, let them realize thruthness is important for their nation. i have to care for mine....and respect where i live also because i own many things to brazil....
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Post by Tim on Jan 21, 2006 0:48:41 GMT -5
I should apologize, too. I was stereotyping. It seems like wherever I go, people seem to only want to attack my race. Ok, sorry. Now I know what you mean.
Generally speaking, the "Chinese" race doesn't actually exist. The Han is not so much an ethnic as it is a mixture of other ethnics. It is kind of like white people in America... mixture of other European nations, except that the Han ethnic obviously has been going on for a lot longer than the Americans.
There indeed was a dynasty called Han, which existed around 2000 years ago. It is quite an interesting story, for the Han empire rose. At that time, many people wanted to rebuild China and established a new empire. Liu Bang started the Han empire, and since it was China's first great empire, the Chinese majority were known as Hans. If, however, Liu Bang failed... then most likely there would not be a Han ethnic today.
Alot of the ethnics in China are actually ancestors of the Hans, except a few exceptions, such as the Tibetans and other ethnics of western China. (western as in a direction, not the Western World).
As for what you said about the Japanese... you know what? you're absolutely right. They can choose to be ignorant if they want. This is a silly arguement. It's not like you or I could change what the Japanese think. If they want to think like that, it's not our business, and morover, not our fault.
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Post by PRLA on Jan 22, 2006 2:26:52 GMT -5
This is Japan problem right now: Japan prime minister have apologized for their war crimes but its met with skepticism of its sincerity Actually japan still has not apologised yet. They used the word Wabi. It is in the lines of one feeling sadness and regret. Its meaning does not say sorry. You would use Gomenasai as the real word for sorry. As a Chinese, I will say that it was the Chinese's fault for not opening up to the West during the age of Imperialism, and we should learn from that as a sign that we must isolate ourselves because we are ignorant, proud, etc. Wow this has got to be the most ignorant thing i have ever heard of. china wanted to close itself off from bad influences from other countries. (religion,drugs,corruption,physical attacks) China did open up to the world of trade. The british and other countries,originaly banded together to attack china to force them to do so. But it is the US that scorned them later in the 40's, because of certain actions. Also note that japan also had been forced to trade with foreigners. But later, japan closed off its borders,for what seemed like eternity. Japan isolated itself from the world longer than china had. correct man, it does not give the right, but it would be naive to think that it won't happen again considering nations....maybe from our own country like in the three kingdoms period in korea.....or to be more recent the civil war.... I think your thinking of ancient china. Have you not played or heard of romance of the three kindoms?
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Post by Tim on Jan 22, 2006 13:58:12 GMT -5
How was I being ignorant? Sure, the Chinese wanted to close off influence from drugs, religion, so on. That is something that they did right. However, because of this action, China closed itself out from modern technology! China's door was easily broken down because Imperialists have guns and stuff, while China secured her door with bows and arrows! Had China learned more about technology about the Western world, she could've easily protected her people.
Also, the U.S. were not kind to the Chinese either. Sure, they were nicer than other Imperialists, but have you not heard of Truman and the Korean War? He forgave the Japanese for bombing the Pearl Harbor, just so Japan would give them passage to China and destroy the Chinese! He even wanted the Communist to rise, because he believed that communism will destroy China.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 22, 2006 14:56:13 GMT -5
PRLA, i didn't understand your point and i didn't understand your writing, for as much as i know the three kingdoms period happened both in china and in korea so i won't comment.....
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Post by PRLA on Jan 22, 2006 22:29:14 GMT -5
How was I being ignorant? Sure, the Chinese wanted to close off influence from drugs, religion, so on. That is something that they did right. However, because of this action, China closed itself out from modern technology! China's door was easily broken down because Imperialists have guns and stuff, while China secured her door with bows and arrows! Had China learned more about technology about the Western world, she could've easily protected her people. Uh china had technology of its own. They invented gunpowder and arm mounted cannons. Its silly to say they were at fault or to blame for protecting their borders. Its like blaming a rape victim for not opening the door to getting raped by a rapist. British gave china nothing but lies,drug addiction and venereal sex diseases. They didn't share technology. They occupied land instead. Also, the U.S. were not kind to the Chinese either. Sure, they were nicer than other Imperialists, but have you not heard of Truman and the Korean War? He forgave the Japanese for bombing the Pearl Harbor, just so Japan would give them passage to China and destroy the Chinese! He even wanted the Communist to rise, because he believed that communism will destroy China. I never said US was kind. In fact they were apart of the ocupation group that invaded china in the 1800's
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Post by Tim on Jan 23, 2006 0:00:41 GMT -5
Wow, PRLA, do you know what happened during the Age of Imperialism? The Westerners have motorized transportations, better technology, economy, and pretty much better everything than China. It was not China's fault that she got invaded and conquered, but China still shares some responsibility. Just because someone is ignorant, it does not give you the right to conquer them, BUT, the ignorant one still has some faults. So what if China has gunpowder at that time? They don't use it very much, and the Westerners' gunpowder are far more developed. The Westerners have steel as armors, while China still uses iron and crap.
I am still angry at the British for doing this to my people, but while it's true they occupy land, they also shared technology. Look at Hong Kong. Under British rule, Hong Kong flourished while the rest of China slumbered in darkness. Had Hong Kong remained in hands of Chinese, Hong Kong would not be as great as it is today. The keyword is MODERN technology.
Let's look at Chinese Empress Ci Xi. What would you say about her, using military money to build a garden? Or perhaps Pu Yi, who would rather be an emperor, even if it means he would be a pigeon for the Japanese. Although the Imperialists have NO right whatsoever to try and enslave us Chinese, China having the worst possible leaders aren't exactly something the Imperialists can put up on all the responsibilities.
For your rape example, it's like saying a father being too lazy to care and guard the girl for her life. The father could have taken measures to block out the rapist, but instead, he just doodles and bribes the rapist not to hurt him, while the rapist gets to have his daughter. The father is also partially responsible for the crime.
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Post by PRLA on Jan 23, 2006 20:16:29 GMT -5
Wow, PRLA, do you know what happened during the Age of Imperialism? The Westerners have motorized transportations, better technology, economy, and pretty much better everything than China. It was not China's fault that she got invaded and conquered, but China still shares some responsibility. Just because someone is ignorant, it does not give you the right to conquer them, BUT, the ignorant one still has some faults. So what if China has gunpowder at that time? They don't use it very much, and the Westerners' gunpowder are far more developed. The Westerners have steel as armors, while China still uses iron and crap. I don't see where your going with this? China holds no responsibility for other persons/countries actions. They are allowed to choose to close off its boaders or not. Secondly you say you hate british and americans. Yet you praise them for supposedly being more advanced. Again where are you going with this? What are you trying to say? I am still angry at the British for doing this to my people, but while it's true they occupy land, they also shared technology. Look at Hong Kong. Under British rule, Hong Kong flourished while the rest of China slumbered in darkness. Had Hong Kong remained in hands of Chinese, Hong Kong would not be as great as it is today. The keyword is MODERN technology. British is a monarchy like japan. The british chose HK as its own land. It did well because the brits had lots of money and power to use already. Hk people did not actually gain freedom until the last years of 1997 by the britts. Two different economic systems will not sustain the entire country. So yes of course mainland did not do as good. Let's look at Chinese Empress Ci Xi. What would you say about her, using military money to build a garden? Or perhaps Pu Yi, who would rather be an emperor, even if it means he would be a pigeon for the Japanese. Although the Imperialists have NO right whatsoever to try and enslave us Chinese, China having the worst possible leaders aren't exactly something the Imperialists can put up on all the responsibilities. I preffer gardens to waging wars.... Pu Yi of Manchuria,had no choice. He wanted to live. He wanted his family to live. He wanted to survive. US does not have good leaders either. Good leadership is hard to find anywhere.
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Post by Tim on Jan 23, 2006 22:06:14 GMT -5
Praising an empire for destroying my country (or almost)? No, I am simply stating the facts. China can close her borders if she wants, but that invites disaster. You can refuse to go out and work, but you won't get paid, and you'll soon starve to death in your own house.
Are you to tell me that HK being better than EVERY mainland city is just a coincidence that it was ruled by the British? The British were far more superior than the Chinese AT THAT TIME.
Oh yes, Ci Xi wanted to spoil herself. Those money were used to PROTECT HER COUNTRY FROM THE IMPERIALIST AND SHE FREAKING USED IT TO SPOIL HERSELF!!! how can you say that's a better idea? It seems like you are not very patriotic. As for Pu Yi, his life is more important than his people, right? Let the Japanese kill 300,000 people in Nanjing! As long as it doesn't affect me, why should I care? Pu Yi was a dirty rat for the Japanese. He didn't really care about his people, just his life. How can anyone as selfish as him be the leader of a country?
One last thing, I don't hate America. I do somewhat hold grudge against Britain (no offense to UK people), but I really don't hate America that much. They are testing my temper, but I don't hate them. Not all Americans are evil, just the politicians.
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Post by sunami chun on Jan 23, 2006 23:17:28 GMT -5
PRLA, no offense but i think you should study some more. China had its great oportunity to become the world's most proeminant leader with admiral Zhang He, but because the government were so much afraid of losing his power (personal power of course and not country's best interest) for the enriching merchants of the south, the ming emperor demanded to cease whatever contact to the outerworld....and then all the problems started to china because the west took the advantage, and i say this with pain in my heart because Zhang he was a real diplomat different from the aggressive european stance towards less developed countries....i don't think you are right to say that you hold no responsability for other actions, do you buy everything your politicians or government tells you? just because they are chinese they are right and the others are wrong to show you how wrong you are? as i said before i think this argument is really naive because you don't live inside a bubble and when talking about greedy nations and greedy people with power at least i expect my government that should always think in the best interest of the people to acknowledge possible threats and be prepared....i understand your point of view but it takes you to nowhere...there is no such thing as ethics in politics.
quoting again: "Just as an apple comes from an apple tree, and a pear from a pear tree, a fruit of independence is bore from a people who are competent to be indepedent, and a fruit of slavery is bore from a people who are qualified to be enslaved."
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Post by Tim on Jan 24, 2006 0:46:13 GMT -5
Thank you for backing me up, sunami. Oh, and it's Zheng He, not Zhang He.
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Post by PRLA on Jan 24, 2006 17:04:56 GMT -5
Praising an empire for destroying my country (or almost)? No, I am simply stating the facts. China can close her borders if she wants, but that invites disaster. You can refuse to go out and work, but you won't get paid, and you'll soon starve to death in your own house. I didn't praise any empire that causes destrction... I disagree that closing borders will "invite trouble too. It is simply a choice of free world trade, versus national trading. Are you to tell me that HK being better than EVERY mainland city is just a coincidence that it was ruled by the British? The British were far more superior than the Chinese AT THAT TIME. No that is entirely your own perception of things. I am merely saying that there are two governing systems at work here. One is british system. The other being a chinese one. Oh yes, Ci Xi wanted to spoil herself. Those money were used to PROTECT HER COUNTRY FROM THE IMPERIALIST AND SHE FREAKING USED IT TO SPOIL HERSELF!!! how can you say that's a better idea? It seems like you are not very patriotic. Well you only gave two choices. Either to spend money on gadens,or spend it on wars. I chose gardens. You never said anything about spending on protection. I suggest you try to give more details next time. As for Pu Yi, his life is more important than his people, right? Let the Japanese kill 300,000 people in Nanjing! As long as it doesn't affect me, why should I care? Pu Yi was a dirty rat for the Japanese. He didn't really care about his people, just his life. How can anyone as selfish as him be the leader of a country? I never said he was more important than the people he represents. Again, It is your own view on things. I think anyone would have done the same if they were in his shoes. The japanese had control already. Nothing he could have done. Not all Americans are evil, just the politicians. Not so. Not all politicians are evil either. But i do agree that many are corrupt and have special interest in mind. China had its great oportunity to become the world's most proeminant leader with admiral Zhang He, but because the government were so much afraid of losing his power (personal power of course and not country's best interest) for the enriching merchants of the south, the ming emperor demanded to cease whatever contact to the outerworld....and then all the problems started to china because the west took the advantage, and i say this with pain in my heart because Zhang he was a real diplomat different from the aggressive european stance towards less developed countries.... We are on the same wave length here. i don't think you are right to say that you hold no responsability for other actions, do you buy everything your politicians or government tells you? just because they are chinese they are right and the others are wrong to show you how wrong you are? as i said before i think this argument is really naive because you don't live inside a bubble and when talking about greedy nations and greedy people with power at least i expect my government that should always think in the best interest of the people to acknowledge possible threats and be prepared....i understand your point of view but it takes you to nowhere...there is no such thing as ethics in politics. I didn't mention anything about who was right or wrong? Simply stated that china was not responsible. if a foreign country decided to attack china and occupy its land for self interest,why would china be responsible for it? Thank you for backing me up, sunami. He/she is not backing you up. She/he is simply stating what is their view on an issue...
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