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Post by skinz on Mar 21, 2005 15:47:10 GMT -5
I thought another critical thinking could spice things up a bit.
O.K. so Hideyoshi,after obtaining kyushu, decided to broaded his scope on the situation he was in and decided to conquer ming. What could've been his real motive?
Was he trying to look for more land to conquer? I don't think it was solely on gaining new grounds. If that was his only intentions, why didn't he advance north to conquer Hokkaido?
The fear of being invaded himself? Although it was 300 years ago that the Mongols tried to invade Japan, the fear of foreign invasion still lasted with the japanese.
Was he trying to renew trade relations with China and Korea?
Or was it simply trying to create a reputation or title for himself in history? By distinguishing himself as Taiko, it is clearly shown that he had to be very disgruntled of the fact that he couldn't offically be known as Shogun.
Anymore insight? I'll try to gather more info on this topic
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Post by donilpark on Mar 21, 2005 18:18:54 GMT -5
He said he was going to attack Ming, but that was only an excuse to attack Korea. For one, he openly asked Korea to open and lead the way to attack Ming, which, obviously, Korea would not comply with.
So, invading Korea was his purpose from the beginning.
However, he also wanted to channel the warriors' energy to outside. Japan just came out of a long period of warring states, so there were plenty of soldiers and warriors who lost job and were causing problems domestically.
So naturally, he would want to get their attention somwehre else and satisfy his greed as well.
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Post by ID on Mar 21, 2005 19:59:24 GMT -5
The reason was that Toyotomi promised the Daimyos, who would join his side during the unification war {Sengoku period} that they will recieve great amounts of land, but when he gained control, he couldn't deliver on his promis. So, he wanted to use foreign, conquered land to satisfy the Daimyo. That, and he's an old maniac.
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Post by Hac himan Taro on Mar 22, 2005 0:19:26 GMT -5
I don't think there are any questions that Hideyoshi's main target was Ming. This has been pretty well documented, historically. He attempted to negotiate for years for what amounted to free passage through Chosun (and even aid). What were his motivations? The common historical excuse has been that he needed to satisfy his vassals by awarding them more land. However, I think this is secondary to the fact that Hideyoshi simply became more full of himself as he gained more power and grew older. To a military leader in Asia there could be no bigger prize than conquering Ming. The question has been raised as to whether he was also breaking down mentally as well. This may well be partly true. Hideyoshi's Japanese campaigns showed him to be the most accomplished strategist in medieval Japan (by far), and his failure to grasp the scope of invading Ming clearly shows that his strategic mind was either out of commission or seriously impaired. In addition, his campaigns in Japan had also shown him to be much more merciful than his contemporaries and given to preferring negotiation when he had a choice--none of these qualities were apparent in his cruelty in the Korean invasion. Whether or not Hideyoshi really went off his rocker in his later years or whether he was just another another (of many) military tyrant who grew more and more tyrannical and irrational as he gained power is a matter of speculation. Perhaps the bottom line is that he forever stained his name by directing the Korean invasions. Throw out the invasions and he is Japan's greatest medieval leader (many consider him that anyway). My father (Japanese) always hated Hideyoshi for his invasions of Korea---he scornfully called Hideyoshi "Japan's Napoleon".
By the way, most of you are probably aware that the timeline depicted in the show is very badly altered and you only get pieces of the truth. For example, Hideyoshi is already sending Wakizaka to Chosun in the 1560's, a time when Hidoyoshi was just another vassal trying to win Nobunaga's favor--he had neither the time nor the power at that time to initiate such an incursion. In those 1560's episodes there is all this talk of the threat of a Japanese invasion, yet a full scale invasion was hardly a possibility when Japan was engulfed in multi sided civil war--at the time of those episodes Nobunaga wasn't even top dog yet--who could tell whether Shimazu, Mori, Uesugi, Takeda, Date, or others would end up on top. What WAS happening at that time were incursions by Japanese pirates, the Wako. This is mentioned tangentially when the condescending Japanese diplomatic overture is rebuffed.
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Post by skinz on Mar 22, 2005 9:30:22 GMT -5
He said he was going to attack Ming, but that was only an excuse to attack Korea. For one, he openly asked Korea to open and lead the way to attack Ming, which, obviously, Korea would not comply with. So, invading Korea was his purpose from the beginning. However, he also wanted to channel the warriors' energy to outside. Japan just came out of a long period of warring states, so there were plenty of soldiers and warriors who lost job and were causing problems domestically. So naturally, he would want to get their attention somwehre else and satisfy his greed as well. True, but if the warriors were starving for war, why did peace reign for 250 years afterwards by Tokugawa. There was a poorly defended Hokkaido in the north if Hideyoshi wanted more territory for his daimyos. Hideyoshi also couldn’t have been insane (well, not in the early parts of the war. He did ordered his nephew and family to be executed) since the 1592 expedition was conceived and supervised by him personally. I believe that his background and the lack of respect some people had towards his peasant origin had to play a big role. The sword hunt in 1588 confiscated all weapons from the farmers/peasant class to eliminate anyone to achieve what he achieved, so it was still in the back of his mind. I’m surprised he didn’t kill Yoshiaki Ashikaga (the remaining Ashikaga that prohibited Hideyoshi from taking the title Shogun) but that would’ve launched the system to collapse. His worldwide views and worldwide warfare was obviously lacking since he couldn’t differentiate Civil war and overseas war. So was he trying to bring Japan to the international level by his usual policy? (show force then negotiate) |
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Post by moreshige on Mar 22, 2005 9:49:36 GMT -5
True, but if the warriors were starving for war, why did peace reign for 250 years afterwards by Tokugawa. There was a poorly defended Hokkaido in the north if Hideyoshi wanted more territory for his daimyos. Hideyoshi also couldn’t have been insane (well, not in the early parts of the war. He did ordered his nephew and family to be executed) since the 1592 expedition was conceived and supervised by him personally. I believe that his background and the lack of respect some people had towards his peasant origin had to play a big role. The sword hunt in 1588 confiscated all weapons from the farmers/peasant class to eliminate anyone to achieve what he achieved, so it was still in the back of his mind. I’m surprised he didn’t kill Yoshiaki Ashikaga (the remaining Ashikaga that prohibited Hideyoshi from taking the title Shogun) but that would’ve launched the system to collapse. His worldwide views and worldwide warfare was obviously lacking since he couldn’t differentiate Civil war and overseas war. So was he trying to bring Japan to the international level by his usual policy? (show force then negotiate) I remember reading that many of Hideyoshi's former enemies were sent to the Korean front. I think it was one way to for him to eliminate future rivals. |
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Post by Skinz Unlogged on Mar 22, 2005 10:33:50 GMT -5
I remember reading that many of Hideyoshi's former enemies were sent to the Korean front. I think it was one way to for him to eliminate future rivals. Actually, many of Hideyoshi supporters went to Korea while his ambitious warriors were safe in Japan. Ieyasu Tokugawa, Date Masamune,Hosokawa Tadaoki,Ii Naomasa (red devils),Ishida Mitsunari and more never saw action in the Korean Invasion. If you think about it, some soldiers in Tokugawa side in the battle of sekigahara didn't participate while Toyotomi side had soldiers returning from a disaster two years prior. Guess Tokugawa was planning all along.  |
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Post by Choko on Mar 22, 2005 13:23:21 GMT -5
Actually, many of Hideyoshi supporters went to Korea while his ambitious warriors were safe in Japan. Ieyasu Tokugawa, Date Masamune,Hosokawa Tadaoki,Ii Naomasa (red devils),Ishida Mitsunari and more never saw action in the Korean Invasion. If you think about it, some soldiers in Tokugawa side in the battle of sekigahara didn't participate while Toyotomi side had soldiers returning from a disaster two years prior. Guess Tokugawa was planning all along. Tate Masamune joined the 7-year war in April, 1593 and returned to Japan in September, 1593. One of the reasons why Hideyoshi desired to conquer Chosun is that Japanese wanted more "porcelain". As some of you know, Japanese Daimyos were crazy for tea and porcelain, but they did not know to make it. For example, Oda Nobunaga, Hideyoshi's master, attacked the castle of his subordinate, Matsunaga Hisahide, to take his porcelain, but Matsunaga refused to hand it over and committed suicide with it. (Actually, it was not porcelain but a kind of tea pot though) Porcelain was an important export item of Ming China to the world. It is noticeable that China(Ming), Korea(Chosun) and Vietnam were the 3 only nations which have the cutting-edge technology at that time. While European alchemists were busy in studying to find the secret of Chinese porcelain, Japanese daimyos chose an easy way. They kidnapped about 1,000 Korean potters during the 7-year war to satisfy their demand, and the potters never came back their home. (That's why YSS met with potters in Gonyang village in this drama) Anyway, Japan became the world's top exporter of porcelain about 20 years later, and earned tremendous amount of money from Europeans merchants, instead of China which was suffering from civil war between Ming and Ching. |
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Post by donilpark on Mar 22, 2005 13:31:26 GMT -5
True, but if the warriors were starving for war, why did peace reign for 250 years afterwards by Tokugawa. Precisely because they were killed off in Korea. |
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Post by Skinz unlogged on Mar 22, 2005 13:52:57 GMT -5
Precisely because they were killed off in Korea. No they weren't. The top generals such as Kato Kiyomasa, Wakizaka Yasuharu, Konishi Yukinaga,Takatora Todo, and Shimazu Yoshihiro all left Korea after the war. All of them participated in the battle of sekigahara in 1600 if I'm not mistaken. |
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Post by skinz unlogged on Mar 22, 2005 13:54:52 GMT -5
And the only one that died in the battle of sekigahara was Konishi while the rest died later by old age or some other circumstances.
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Post by Hachiman Taro on Mar 22, 2005 14:17:41 GMT -5
And the only one that died in the battle of sekigahara was Konishi while the rest died later by old age or some other circumstances. Yes, Konishi was killed as a result of Sekigahara, but his death actually came after the actual battle. He and Ishida Mitsunari were eventually captured and executed. Konishi was on the wrong end of the most critical moment at Sekigahara, when Kobayakawa switched sides and Konishi and co. were routed. There's an interesting note from a dramatized show on Date Masamune from about 10 years ago or so. In that show he is depicted as trying to do everything he can to prevent his troops from being sent to war, but he finally is forced by Hideyoshi to contribute men to the war. I recall in the dramatization he sent his troops to review in extremely flashy uniforms and had them put on airs of arrogance and importance. This resulted in his troops being assigned to the rear, which was Masamune's ploy to keep his men out of the line of fire. Whether or not this is historically true or not I don't know. As for Ieyasu avoiding the war, this was mainly because Ieyasu has reached such a level of strength by that time that Hideyoshi couldn't force him to do his bidding. There had been a military confrontation between them earlier that basically ended in a draw and Ieyasu's strength convinced Hideyoshi that it was in his best interests to stay on Ieyasu's good side and maintain their fragile alliance rather than subjugate him. |
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Post by skinz unlogged on Mar 22, 2005 16:28:27 GMT -5
As for Ieyasu avoiding the war, this was mainly because Ieyasu has reached such a level of strength by that time that Hideyoshi couldn't force him to do his bidding. There had been a military confrontation between them earlier that basically ended in a draw and Ieyasu's strength convinced Hideyoshi that it was in his best interests to stay on Ieyasu's good side and maintain their fragile alliance rather than subjugate him. That might explain his urgency for a heir. |
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Post by donilpark on Mar 22, 2005 17:13:04 GMT -5
Hm... I was thinking more in terms of normal soldiers and warriors and how they might cause petty problems at times and cause disturbance in public peace and order, rather than political instability.
But if you look at this in terms of those high rank generals, then I think you are right.
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Post by skinz on Mar 23, 2005 9:14:24 GMT -5
Hm... I was thinking more in terms of normal soldiers and warriors and how they might cause petty problems at times and cause disturbance in public peace and order, rather than political instability. Oh! my mistake. Yes, if a lot of low ranking soldiers returned, they would've caused a lot of problem for Togukawa. |
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