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Post by YSS on Dec 22, 2004 17:38:24 GMT -5
In Japanese History it records, <Lee Soon Shin died after a victory and won after the death. Out of numerous heros of Chosun, they should be proud of Lee Soon Shin the most. When Lee Soon Shin was alive, generals of Japanese navy were cowered. He is not just a hero of Chosun but the greatest hero of the Three Asia(Korea, Japan, China)>.
A Japanese war hero Admiral Toko said in an interview after repulsing Russian fleet during Russian-Japanese War, "You may compare me with Admiral Nelson. But please do not compare me with Lee Soon Shin because I am nothing compare to him and it's a disgrace for a great man."
Until now, Japanese navy perform sacrificial rite to Lee Soon Shin.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 4, 2005 20:23:09 GMT -5
Too bad the world knows more about admiral Nelson and admiral Togo than they do about Yi Soon shin. That just shows you that "world" history is really western history. Togo's famous and relevant in history because he repulsed the Russians in 1905. Had he been an admiral during the imjin wars I think no one would know about him outside of east asia. What do you guys think?
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Post by Hachiman Taro on Feb 4, 2005 21:24:18 GMT -5
No doubt you are right, few outside of Asia would know of Togo had he been a successful Japanese admiral prior to Perry's arrival. However, we have to remember the concept of our "world" is colored largely by where we're from. From our standpoint living in the USA, our "world" is shaped largely by a "western" perspective. On the other hand if we were Asia, which includes the most populous nation on Earth, our "world" would be different, and I imagine YSS would be far better known than Nelson, just as Luo Guanzhong (or in any case that greatest of all epics attributed to him) would likely be better known than Homer or Shakespeare.
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Post by donilpark on Feb 5, 2005 0:16:49 GMT -5
Too bad the world knows more about admiral Nelson and admiral Togo than they do about Yi Soon shin. That just shows you that "world" history is really western history. Togo's famous and relevant in history because he repulsed the Russians in 1905. Had he been an admiral during the imjin wars I think no one would know about him outside of east asia. What do you guys think? True that. One thing I realize whenever I read the so-called 'world history' books is that whoever is in power or are important now is treated as having had an importance in history. For example, Japan's history appears in every world history book but Korean history is never mentioned, even though Japan has virtually no significance in world history at least until 16th or 17th century. They were confined in their archipelago throughout their history, never able to get out of it until finally suceeding in annexing Korea during the WWII. Yet, apparently, since it is one of the wealthiest nation and because of its relative importance in the recent years (during the 19~20th century) in terms of how it took part in the development of world history, its entire history (which, to objective eyes, is pretty insignificant) is regarded as being important in history books. Of course I do realize that in order to understand the important part of their history, it may be necessary to learn the history prior to the important part. Not really trying to do a Japan-bashing, but considering the theme of the drama we discuss on this board, I think it's one of the relevant examples. Hachiman Taro/ Actually, I would disagree. I'm pretty sure Nelson is better known anywhere outside of Korea and Homer and Shakespeare better known than Luo Guanzhong anywhere in Asia other than China. Western influence on the rest of the world is really overwhelming.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 5, 2005 9:41:50 GMT -5
What is frustrating is when I go to a Barnes and Nobles and go to the history section to look for history books on korea, about 90% of them are about the korean war. It's as if over 2000 years of history has been glossed over and the historians decided to just concentrate on the last fifty years. Even in the english korean history books I see about a good third of the chapters devoted to just the war. I understand that these writers are mostly westerners but it'll be nice to see if they at least translated some history books by korean authors if no one in the western world will atempt to write about korea before the war. I say this because in the case with Japan and China there seems to more of a balance. I was able to find books on both ancient and modern history for japan and china.
When I was in college I took a course on Japanese history because there was no history course on korea. So I learned korean history indirectly. My professor also sympathized with me and said there should be more courses on korea offered. I know that korean history is offered in certain grad schools and ivy league colleges but that's about it. just my 2 cents
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Post by donilpark on Feb 5, 2005 10:28:47 GMT -5
What is frustrating is when I go to a Barnes and Nobles and go to the history section to look for history books on korea, about 90% of them are about the korean war. It's as if over 2000 years of history has been glossed over and the historians decided to just concentrate on the last fifty years. Even in the english korean history books I see about a good third of the chapters devoted to just the war. I understand that these writers are mostly westerners but it'll be nice to see if they at least translated some history books by korean authors if no one in the western world will atempt to write about korea before the war. I say this because in the case with Japan and China there seems to more of a balance. I was able to find books on both ancient and modern history for japan and china. Not to mention that of those that do talk about Korean history (directly or indirectly. 99% of the time, indirectly as it relates to Chinese and Japanese history), most are terribly biased, talking about theories that even Japanese scholars now shun. (saying Japan occupied southern part of Korean peninsula 200 years from 4th to 6th century... They havn't even formed a real state with central power at that point in time, let alone invading someone else. Japan was still a tribal union at that time) Well, nothing is clearer... history is written by the victor...
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 5, 2005 11:08:29 GMT -5
In Japanese History it records, <Lee Soon Shin died after a victory and won after the death. Out of numerous heros of Chosun, they should be proud of Lee Soon Shin the most. When Lee Soon Shin was alive, generals of Japanese navy were cowered. He is not just a hero of Chosun but the greatest hero of the Three Asia(Korea, Japan, China)>. A Japanese war hero Admiral Toko said in an interview after repulsing Russian fleet during Russian-Japanese War, "You may compare me with Admiral Nelson. But please do not compare me with Lee Soon Shin because I am nothing compare to him and it's a disgrace for a great man." Taking NOTHING away from YSS, because it isn't disputed that he crushed the Japanese Navy in his time, but wouldn't the vanquished, a few hundred years later, tend to paint him larger than life for a self-serving reason? First, it just wouldn't feel as good if they thought they had been defeated by a chump. And second, it seems to me that Toko was sending a message to the Western world from an increasingly powerful Japanese military. Putting YSS on a pedestal higher than Nelson presu mes that 18th-19thc Spain/France were less clever adversaries against England than the 16th c. pre-Tokugawan Japanese were against YSS. That Toko sure knew how to spin it... While Japanese textsbooks and histories enjoy selecting who Koreans should most be proud of, some Korean textbooks might look to the time of Korea's annexation to Japan and pick a certain Ahn Choong-geon, who assassinated the Japanese governor of Korea, Ito Hirobumi, as one of its greatest heros of all time. But, as Moreshige and Hachiman Toro say, it depends on where you have been standing in this world of ours... Hope I haven't offended anyone--I have a conspiracy theorists mentality when it comes to versions of history.
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Post by donilpark on Feb 5, 2005 11:35:19 GMT -5
That reminds me of one lecture in my world history class. The way how the Greeks have unique character of praising their enemy, in this case, the Persians, because they want their enemy to be worthy, especially if they beat them. The way professor said 'unique' seemed to reflect that other cultures generally don't do that. Not Japan, for a certainty. The one thing Japan tried so hard to do (and succeeded in large part) whenever it got a chance to do it was to destroy and distort the history. I don't know if this is depicted in the drama or will be depicted, but during the Injin war, Japan had 6 special forces that had purposes other than fighting. They each specialized in looting treasures, craft, metals, livestock, books and kidnapping people. Books were stolen or burnt vigorously, so that three of four national libraries of Korea were destroyed during this war. And later when Japan occupied Korea, they altered tombstones and took even more books. Huge number of books stolen is thought to be still in Japan. They have this complex when it comes to history, so they try hard to deny the true history and paint a glorious one for themselves.
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 5, 2005 12:12:29 GMT -5
That reminds me of one lecture in my world history class. The way how the Greeks have unique character of praising their enemy, in this case, the Persians, because they want their enemy to be worthy, especially if they beat them. The way professor said 'unique' seemed to reflect that other cultures generally don't do that. Not Japan, for a certainty. The one thing Japan tried so hard to do (and succeeded in large part) whenever it got a chance to do it was to destroy and distort the history. So, are you saying that the Japanese history quoted in the first post of this thread is a FAKE? All I was saying was that their praise of YSS was self-serving, not just to make themselves just look and feel better, but for the purpose of putting down Europeans as enemies at a time when the Japanese military was doing its bit to colonize East Asia. It was part of their propaganda to put the world on notice. Perhaps it was the form of the praise that made the Greeks unique (put in to an epic poem or song or naked interpretive dance?), but the practice as strategic discourse is not limited to them. In the Napoleonic wars, Wellington and Nelson treated Napoleon like a genius to rally more support and resources for their war efforts. The US will often publically overestimate its enemies cleverness in order assert an agenda: EG. "Iraq somehow has weapons of Mass Destruction" Hans Blix: No they don't, I looked. Bush: Yes they do, you just couldn't find them because they're so tricky/good at hiding things. Blix: Really, I looked everywhere. Bush: Your credibility will be destroyed if you don't find them. Blix: Sigh... Okay, you win. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, go ahead and invade and have Halliburton rebuild the country when you're done. Any resemblance to real persons or events is purely coincidental. ;D
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Post by ID on Feb 5, 2005 12:34:59 GMT -5
I wish I was a moderator for one day. Bu then again, that's about as good as making me a dictator.
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Post by donilpark on Feb 5, 2005 15:24:10 GMT -5
So, are you saying that the Japanese history quoted in the first post of this thread is a FAKE? All I was saying was that their praise of YSS was self-serving, not just to make themselves just look and feel better, but for the purpose of putting down Europeans as enemies at a time when the Japanese military was doing its bit to colonize East Asia. It was part of their propaganda to put the world on notice. ;D No, no I'm not saying that. I didn't realize that self-serving you were talking about was against the Europeans. But then again, if it was said in that kind of context -"See, we Japanese have fought against the greatest admiral in the history that you Europeans have never even seen, know, or heard before. So we're better tha you."- I don't know. Would Japanese pride allow that at the time when Korea was under their colonial rule? And the quote from the history book was probably not written with Europeans in mind.... if you're talking about that quote from Admiral Togo, then you can talk about Europeans. But not the quote from the history book. So, I don't say that the quote from the history book is false. Furthermore, I don't consider Togo's comment as self-serving either. I think he meant it from his heart, although I can never tell since I'm not him. I am not good at writing, but to summarize my point, 1. Japanese usually don't praise the enemy so that they may look better themselves. 2. In fact, they generally try to put down their enemies. Most of all none other than Korea. 3. Despite that, Japanese history book and Togo still praised Yi Soonshin as a hero. (as well as the fact that he was not just any hero but that of their slaves-Koreans- at the time) 4. That goes to show how great Yi Soonshin truly was, rather than self-serving bias on the part of the Japanese. I'm not hear to argue though. So if you thought that way, I apologize. Please don't misunderstand.
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Post by Shaughraun on Feb 6, 2005 19:21:33 GMT -5
I'm amazed and pleased to find this great site devoted to the Immortal Yi Soon Shin drama. I got hooked on it only a few weeks ago. Thank you!
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 6, 2005 21:03:19 GMT -5
No, no I'm not saying that. I didn't realize that self-serving you were talking about was against the Europeans. But then again, if it was said in that kind of context -"See, we Japanese have fought against the greatest admiral in the history that you Europeans have never even seen, know, or heard before. So we're better tha you."- I don't know. Would Japanese pride allow that at the time when Korea was under their colonial rule? Furthermore, I don't consider Togo's comment as self-serving either. I think he meant it from his heart, although I can never tell since I'm not him. You don't have to apologize for making your point. I probably shouldn't be so histrionic in the first place, but I can't seem format words for emphasis without using capital letters. So I apologize for both hitting the wrong tone and for what I now can now see as facetiousness. But back to whether Japanese pride would admit anything positive about Koreans. Well, Toko's comments occured during their colonization of Korea and the rest of East Asia, so I guess that answers that. I think it's highly unlikely he would be so complementary to a Korean if his words were meant for a strictly Japanese audience at that time. But then again, perhaps we was a loose cannon who speaks his mind no matter what Japan's government or people were feeling. As Japan's importance in the world was already gaining quite well in the early 20th c., they were even able to influence US immigration policy to take a favorable stance toward the Japanese (the nativist effort to stem immigration from Asia resulted in the Chinese Exclusion Act, which obviously didn't apply to Japanese nationals). So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Toko made his remarks anticipating that international ears would hear them. But then again, it is always possible that his interview was for himself only. He probably knew that Brits worshipped Nelson like a god and most Europeans would rate him as one of the best. So to say "You can compare me to Nelson, but not to ____" (wouldn't matter who was in that blank) is to already push Nelson (and his opponents) into secondary eminence. If those recently defeated by Toko, like the Russians, or other parties with interests in East Asia (like the US, Britain, France, the Dutch) cared to examine his remarks further, which the foreign service and international media are prone to doing, they could infer what he could have meant by not allowing a comparision between himself and the 16th century admiral, YSS. I'll stop there. I'm no history don or Asianist, just a fan of the show. Like Shaughrahn here.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 6, 2005 23:04:39 GMT -5
I didn't think Togo's (not Toko byw) remarks were that political the way you put it. If he had that interview right after the Russian defeat (1905) then I can see it as less politically motivated IF (and that's a huge IF) he indeed wanted to politicize his comments. Korea was annexed in 1910.
And it's not a case of where an opponent would lift up his enemies just so they can make their own victories look better. He didn't fight Yi soon shin or korea. Russia was the enemy. Korea wasn't under Japan just yet.
Sometimes we overanalyze what people say and their intentions which we'll never know. It's not as if Togo was saying, "hmmm let me think about how I should respond to being compared to Nelson, considering the geo-political nature of the world we're in..." I highly doubt it. I think Togo respected Yi soon shin as an admiral regardless of where he came from. And I believe Togo knew of Nelson as well because he graduated from the naval academy in Britain.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 6, 2005 23:22:21 GMT -5
oopps, i mean't geo-political climate not nature. ok I'm a little anal about that.
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