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Post by TheIceTiger on Jun 29, 2004 21:08:43 GMT -5
yea but the true imperial dragon supposeto be loving and caring. If he believe hes the imperial dragon, wouldn't he be showing aleast some sympathy towards the son and the warrior of his former master?
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Post by luvarchfiend on Jun 29, 2004 21:22:36 GMT -5
can anyone who attains power be uncorrupted? is it possible? look at all the fine and honorable warriors and ministers, many started out as respected and men of loyalty and honor, they get power and turn into greedy and complacent and corrupted leaders.
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ArchFiend 4 life
Junior Addict
"Your Grace is Immeasurable"-every suboordinate in AoW
Posts: 187
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Post by ArchFiend 4 life on Jun 30, 2004 0:25:42 GMT -5
im not a big kds fan but kds didnt become corrupted. dont u hate to see the arhcfiend become corrupt LAF? I hated how we had to watch him slowly become corrupt and then became the archfiend we all love but only to be too late.,,
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Post by luvarchfiend on Jun 30, 2004 5:03:28 GMT -5
im not a big kds fan but kds didnt become corrupted. dont u hate to see the arhcfiend become corrupt LAF? I hated how we had to watch him slowly become corrupt and then became the archfiend we all love but only to be too late.,, kds was an exception archfiend 4 life and thanks for showing me that not all become corrupted. he had other problems, one being blind loyalty. i did indeed hate to see what the archfiend became, i rejoiced when he once again became the archfiend we feel in love with, but as you say...too little, too late. the one thing about this though, is that in the end he was trying to do good and not being that corrupt person we hardly recognized.
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generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
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Post by generaldu on Jun 30, 2004 13:21:11 GMT -5
im not a big kds fan but kds didnt become corrupted. dont u hate to see the arhcfiend become corrupt LAF? I hated how we had to watch him slowly become corrupt and then became the archfiend we all love but only to be too late.,, While KDS was not "personally" corrupt in a narrow ethical sense he ended up presiding over a very corrupt organization and as its creator and leader he must be held responsible for its evil actions. Did he ever inquire about the propriety of Dobang's means of support? Also his chronically disfunctional relationship with the Emperor can be seen as a form of corruption because it amounted to a political or administrative pathology which worked fatally against the presumed righteousness of his cause. In my opinion KDS was a greater moral failure than the Archfiend because KDS had a superior intellect and more noble aspirations. The Archfiend was a simple man of action (capable of egregious acts of violence) who needed to rely on his advisors for moral and intellectual guidance. The guidance he did receive was wildly inconsistent and contradictory which at times added to the torments of his heroic struggle to "realize" his destiny. While he was a great warrior I think Yi Ui-min ultimately became a victim of the ambitions of others. First he was a tool in Yi Ui-bangs rise to the top. He then he fell prey to the mythical aspirations of Duduel and the fanatical Kaelim entourage.
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Post by luvarchfiend on Jun 30, 2004 14:12:34 GMT -5
thank you generaldu. i have been trying to make that point about yi ui-min for weeks and no one else seems to agree, that he is a victim and limited by his circumstances. however, you wrote it so much better than i.
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Post by mikey on Jun 30, 2004 18:54:19 GMT -5
Generaldu, that’s a fine analysis, and I agree with most of it. But, I do have some niggling doubts: While KDS was not "personally" corrupt in a narrow ethical sense he ended up presiding over a very corrupt organization and as its creator and leader he must be held responsible for its evil actions. Did he ever inquire about the propriety of Dobang's means of support? No, he didn’t inquire, but that’s not a moral breakdown on his part; it’s his naiveté and inexperience showing. One of the tragedies of KDS is that he was too young, too idealistic, and he trusted his subordinates too much. With another ten years of seasoning under his belt, he might have gone on to change the world, but as it happened, he was forced to deal with an impossible task that he just wasn’t ready for yet. Dobang’s corruption was certainly a personal failure on his part – but Kyung’s own heart was never corrupted. Also his chronically disfunctional relationship with the Emperor can be seen as a form of corruption because it amounted to a political or administrative pathology which worked fatally against the presumed righteousness of his cause. Well, Kyung had *two* righteous (and, thanks to the inadequacy of the sitting emperor, incompatible) causes gnawing at him: the traditional Asian cause of utter devotion to the emperor, and the much more radical cause of devotion to the empire’s poor and downtrodden. When it finally came time to choose, he ultimately selected loyalty to the emperor over the revolutionary ethic of regime change. And, it was a disastrous choice on his part, for not only did it lead to his own, meaningless death before an utterly ungrateful emperor, but it did nothing positive for the people, either. In fairness, though: was there *anybody* else out there in a position of power who genuinely wanted to overthrow the government for a genuinely selfless objective? Even during the Mt. Mita days, the Archfiend often seemed more driven by political ambition than by any selfless desire to serve the people (anybody recall that ridiculous yellow emperor’s robe he took to wearing for a while there)? In my opinion KDS was a greater moral failure than the Archfiend because KDS had a superior intellect and more noble aspirations. Kyung did indeed posses both a superior intellect and a stronger ethical foundation than did the Archfiend, but I’m not so sure it was a “moral” failure on his part so much as it was his own inadequacy: at the time of crisis, the young Kyung Dae-seung was a “good” man, but not yet a “great” one, and he just wasn’t yet up to the task of single-handedly reforming that almost hopelessly corrupt regime. While he was a great warrior I think Yi Ui-min ultimately became a victim of the ambitions of others. First he was a tool in Yi Ui-bangs rise to the top. He then he fell prey to the mythical aspirations of Duduel and the fanatical Kaelim entourage. Yes, I think that many of us (perhaps, to our amazement) developed an affection for the brutal Archfiend because we saw him not so much as some kind of “human devil” as much as an evil man who genuinely didn’t *want* to be evil. He was always going about almost begging for someone, somewhere, to give him the moral guidance he needed, and without that moral guidance, Ui-min was always a bit of a loose cannon. And, unfortunately, though he desperately wanted guidance, he also only rarely deemed anybody superior enough to be worthy of offering it to him. And the ones he did deem worthy were bad choices: Ui-bang only used him to facilitate his own power grabs, and Duduel used him, too – and then dumped him like yesterday’s trash when he decided that Ui-min was a lot more trouble than he was worth. Kyung, perhaps, could have been the ideal advisor, but given Kyung’s over-idealism and Ui-min’s lack of respect for the young Chief Convoy, that pairing was a non-starter from the get-go. I guess it would finally take somebody possessing both Kyung’s brains (though not his principles) and Ui-min’s brutality to ultimately seize power in Koryo – and that guy turned out to be Choi Choong-hon.
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Post by luvarchfiend on Jun 30, 2004 19:25:57 GMT -5
well mikey, that last paragraph gave me the shivers. choe as a combination of KDS and the archfiend. tough for an archfiend fan to think about, yet there is something to it.
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Post by Chung Kyun on Jun 30, 2004 19:26:26 GMT -5
Generaldu, that’s a fine analysis, and I agree with most of it. But, I do have some niggling doubts: No, he didn’t inquire, but that’s not a moral breakdown on his part; it’s his naiveté and inexperience showing. One of the tragedies of KDS is that he was too young, too idealistic, and he trusted his subordinates too much. With another ten years of seasoning under his belt, he might have gone on to change the world, but as it happened, he was forced to deal with an impossible task that he just wasn’t ready for yet. Dobang’s corruption was certainly a personal failure on his part – but Kyung’s own heart was never corrupted. Well, Kyung had *two* righteous (and, thanks to the inadequacy of the sitting emperor, incompatible) causes gnawing at him: the traditional Asian cause of utter devotion to the emperor, and the much more radical cause of devotion to the empire’s poor and downtrodden. When it finally came time to choose, he ultimately selected loyalty to the emperor over the revolutionary ethic of regime change. And, it was a disastrous choice on his part, for not only did it lead to his own, meaningless death before an utterly ungrateful emperor, but it did nothing positive for the people, either. In fairness, though: was there *anybody* else out there in a position of power who genuinely wanted to overthrow the government for a genuinely selfless objective? Even during the Mt. Mita days, the Archfiend often seemed more driven by political ambition than by any selfless desire to serve the people (anybody recall that ridiculous yellow emperor’s robe he took to wearing for a while there)? Kyung did indeed posses both a superior intellect and a stronger ethical foundation than did the Archfiend, but I’m not so sure it was a “moral” failure on his part so much as it was his own inadequacy: at the time of crisis, the young Kyung Dae-seung was a “good” man, but not yet a “great” one, and he just wasn’t yet up to the task of single-handedly reforming that almost hopelessly corrupt regime. Yes, I think that many of us (perhaps, to our amazement) developed an affection for the brutal Archfiend because we saw him not so much as some kind of “human devil” as much as an evil man who genuinely didn’t *want* to be evil. He was always going about almost begging for someone, somewhere, to give him the moral guidance he needed, and without that moral guidance, Ui-min was always a bit of a loose cannon. And, unfortunately, though he desperately wanted guidance, he also only rarely deemed anybody superior enough to be worthy of offering it to him. And the ones he did deem worthy were bad choices: Ui-bang only used him to facilitate his own power grabs, and Duduel used him, too – and then dumped him like yesterday’s trash when he decided that Ui-min was a lot more trouble than he was worth. Kyung, perhaps, could have been the ideal advisor, but given Kyung’s over-idealism and Ui-min’s lack of respect for the young Chief Convoy, that pairing was a non-starter from the get-go. I guess it would finally take somebody possessing both Kyung’s brains (though not his principles) and Ui-min’s brutality to ultimately seize power in Koryo – and that guy turned out to be Choi Choong-hon. yes you have said it thank you for making the best point so far. you said it best in choi choong-hon being the brains of kyung dae-seung and the brutality of the arcfiend. thats why i think aow made choi visite the two warriors kyung and ui-min to be under there wing. its saying he has both there greatness at leading. he may be cold hearted, but that is what got him to power. its hard for a nice guy to control the koryo dynasty, because its a doomed dynasty with only evil subjects that could only be stoped by somebody even more brutal, to take them out.
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Post by Eowyn on Jul 1, 2004 5:06:37 GMT -5
generaldu and mikey, great posts - I enjoyed reading them.
Chung Kyun - yeah, I thought those scenes where Choe meets with KDS and then Ui-min were a great way of introducing the new warrior on the scene, the warrior who will next make his mark and this time succeed in inheriting the imperial court.
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Post by mikey on Jul 1, 2004 8:39:20 GMT -5
well mikey, that last paragraph gave me the shivers. choe as a combination of KDS and the archfiend. tough for an archfiend fan to think about, yet there is something to it. Yeah, maybe I was a little harsh; after all, the Archfiend did have his redeeming qualities. But let’s not forget that, a few episodes ago, the Archfiend also went out and slaughtered the all the inhabitants of an entire village. Even Choi Choong-hon has never pulled off something that horrific! Sad to say, when Ui-min was bad, he was REALLY bad. There’s an interesting comparison, perhaps, of Kyung’s and Choi’s “intelligence.” Kyung was obviously born with a high degree of intelligence (though, given his youth, he still lacked some of that “wisdom” that comes with age) but he also seems to have had superb instincts. Of all the major characters, only Kyung (and, of course, Aji) recognized right away what a dangerous man Choi could be. Everyone else (including his own younger brother) wrote Choi Choong-hon off as a lightweight – to their serious regret later on. Choi, I think, lacks the raw intelligence of Kyung, but what he DOES have (as did Imperial Guardian Chung) is the ability to see things a few steps ahead of everyone else. Choi can plan for things that might happen ten years down the line, and then he has the patience to just sit back let everything unfold. It’s a weird kind of intelligence (almost more of an “instinct”) but it’s a talent that’s priceless in any struggle for power.
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Post by Chung Kyun on Jul 1, 2004 9:01:26 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe I was a little harsh; after all, the Archfiend did have his redeeming qualities. But let’s not forget that, a few episodes ago, the Archfiend also went out and slaughtered the all the inhabitants of an entire village. Even Choi Choong-hon has never pulled off something that horrific! Sad to say, when Ui-min was bad, he was REALLY bad. There’s an interesting comparison, perhaps, of Kyung’s and Choi’s “intelligence.” Kyung was obviously born with a high degree of intelligence (though, given his youth, he still lacked some of that “wisdom” that comes with age) but he also seems to have had superb instincts. Of all the major characters, only Kyung (and, of course, Aji) recognized right away what a dangerous man Choi could be. Everyone else (including his own younger brother) wrote Choi Choong-hon off as a lightweight – to their serious regret later on. Choi, I think, lacks the raw intelligence of Kyung, but what he DOES have (as did Imperial Guardian Chung) is the ability to see things a few steps ahead of everyone else. Choi can plan for things that might happen ten years down the line, and then he has the patience to just sit back let everything unfold. It’s a weird kind of intelligence (almost more of an “instinct”) but it’s a talent that’s priceless in any struggle for power. i think being old has nothing to do with wisdom, zhuge liang was 23 or something and he had more then any minister or warrior in his time. what didn't help kyung was loyalty, just like du. du might want to help the people but his loyalty to the emperor is the sames as kyung and both would make the same mistakes. they said in real life kyung matched the veterans of the dynasty that they even coudn't say anything to him. he was you can say a know it all, and old warriors didn't really like him.
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Post by luvarchfiend on Jul 1, 2004 12:35:23 GMT -5
mikey, i didn't think you were harsh. it just creeped me out a bit, more to do with my gut reaction to choe than anything else. and yes, when the archfiend was bad, he was REALLY BAD. i agree with chung kyun that wisdom has nothing to do with age.....some are born with it, some acquire it as they get older, and some never do.
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Post by TheIceTiger on Jul 1, 2004 15:30:33 GMT -5
youth was KDS's problem. PPL in the CC and royal courth didnt respected him because he was young and they were old ppl. They feel dispected by taking orders from a guy whos like 30 years younger than them.
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Post by Chung Kyun on Jul 1, 2004 15:36:21 GMT -5
youth was KDS's problem. PPL in the CC and royal courth didnt respected him because he was young and they were old ppl. They feel dispected by taking orders from a guy whos like 30 years younger than them. yeah him being young, got the hate of the old guys lol. but he could hang with the big boys, just they didn't like him lol.
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