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Post by sageuk on Nov 12, 2023 1:57:23 GMT -5
Some may have noticed no one uses “mama” when addressing royals. I Heard it’s because “mama” was influenced by the Mongols.
Anyone got something to say why Cheonchu is using “seongsang” instead of “hwangsang?”
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Post by mugwump on Nov 12, 2023 8:18:10 GMT -5
I haven't figured out the problem with Kocowa, so glad I was able to watch on Drama Cool. This series looks very promising so far, and I enjoyed watching it. Though some of the translated dialog seemed too contemporary. "Whack them all!" Now I have to refresh myself on the early Wang family tree again. That little monk kid is so cute.
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Post by truth on Nov 12, 2023 11:15:04 GMT -5
Anyone got something to say why Cheonchu is using “seongsang” instead of “hwangsang?” Both Seongsang and Hwangsang were used according to historical record.
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episode 1
Nov 12, 2023 12:39:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MTR on Nov 12, 2023 12:39:31 GMT -5
Mugwump and anyone else . It’s also free on Viki as well as AJK mentioned Dramacool .
No complaints i am going to savor every minute of this as it might be a long time before we see another trad historical .
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episode 1
Nov 12, 2023 12:59:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MTR on Nov 12, 2023 12:59:55 GMT -5
Lee Min Young as Cheon Chu . Much better than Chae Si Ra . Truth would know more about this, she had a really bad divorce as her husband beat her up pretty badly . It’s good to see her in this .
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Post by sageuk on Nov 12, 2023 13:03:51 GMT -5
Mugwump and anyone else . It’s also free on Viki as well as AJK mentioned Dramacool . . I had no idea viki was still around
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Post by ajk on Nov 12, 2023 15:09:03 GMT -5
Good to hear the episode is so well receive by everyone. Maybe the ratings will improve in SK if positive word spreads about it. (Someone who writes for Soompi looked at the ratings and felt like a 5.5 wasn't bad considering what it was up against. Even thought it was a promising start. I don't know how much this person knows about this stuff but maybe there's some hope.) --I went back and checked and actually it didn't say either "King" or "Emperor"; it just said Mokjong. That wasn't a word-for-word transcription there, just me being sloppy. So I took the "king" out. This has been a problem before, who's referred to as king or emperor and when can this person or that person claim one or the other. So I'm going to ask for blanket amnesty on this. No disrespect intended to any historical figure, just sometimes I may not get it right. --I got nervous about the whole "Crown Prince" business with Wang Sun too, same way. It was in the subs but I ducked it. Again, apologies in advance if I get any of it wrong. --Thank you truth for the info about the second assassination attempt. Wasn't sure how much of that was based on historical record, if any. Made me laugh too, because after what happened with the horse in LBKT you have to wonder if the writers were too scared to show poisoned birds, even simulated. This is something to watch for--how much did that horse situation influence what they do with animals here. Showing a happy cat in Episode 1, I don't think it was a coincidence. --Yeah I did look up that actress and she is 47. (I had meant that Cheonchu was 45 in 1009; sloppy pronouns, my bad.) Apparently she was beaten by her husband and had a miscarriage, terrible story. I'm not sure I'd say she's better than Chae Shira's version, it's apples and oranges. Her version is certainly more interesting, I'll give you that for sure lol. Such a little thing but I’m happy to see Sun’s reactions to his aunt trying to kill him. Definitely you get the feeling that this will be more of a character drama than a lot of the past historicals. That was a big aspect of LBKT, how they presented especially the brothers as more complete human beings. I guess this is just the modern style of TV generally. Not complaining, in fact it makes the story a lot more more interesting if it's done right. The gay thing, thinking about it more, I was very surprised at how heavily they leaned on it. In fact it felt like maybe it was inauthentic at times. When those officials by the Seogyeong gate were talking, they just sort of rolled their eyes about it rather than being horrified and disgusted like you'd expect. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see. I'm not gay and don't have any rooting interest in this but after the way they mangled the story in IE it was certainly a point worth watching for in this series. Plus the audience for these historicals is older and more conservative so you wonder how aggressive the writers are going to be with it.
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Post by truth on Nov 12, 2023 15:44:13 GMT -5
--I went back and checked and actually it didn't say either "King" or "Emperor"; it just said Mokjong. That wasn't a word-for-word transcription there, just me being sloppy. So I took the "king" out. This has been a problem before, who's referred to as king or emperor and when can this person or that person claim one or the other. So I'm going to ask for blanket amnesty on this. No disrespect intended to any historical figure, just sometimes I may not get it right. Goryeo's monarchs were called "Emperor" until Goryeo surrendered and was subjugated by the Mongols. Goryeo monarchs being called "emperor", "imperial highness", "imperial majesty", "His Holiness" is recorded in historical record and also written on tombs. This is why Mokjong is called Peha(Imperial Majesty) in this drama, instead of Chonna(Royal Majesty), which is what Late Goryeo era kings and Joseon kings were called. In Goryeo before surrendering to Mongols, Chonna(Royal Majesty) was reserved for Crown Prince. Goryeo monarchs before surrendering to Mongols = Peha(Imperial Majesty) Goryeo Crown Prince before surrendering to Mongols = Chonna(Royal Majesty) Goryeo kings after surrendering to Mongols and Joseon kings = Chonna(Royal Majesty) Goryeo Crown Prince after surrendering to Mongols and Joseon Crown Prince = Jeoha(Your Highness) Cheonchu refers to Mokjong as "Seongsang" in this drama, which means "Your Holiness" or "His Holiness" depending on context. Goryeo rulers being called "Seongsang" is a legitimate fact recorded in historical record. Goryeo rulers in later Goryeo period and Joseon kings were never called as Seongsang for the obvious reason I mentioned above. --I got nervous about the whole "Crown Prince" business with Wang Sun too, same way. It was in the subs but I ducked it. Again, apologies in advance if I get any of it wrong. If he was called Crown Prince in the sub, then it is wrong because Wang Sun was not a Crown Prince. He was just a prince-in-hiding who's been kicked out of the palace by his aunt Cheonchu. --Thank you truth for the info about the second assassination attempt. Wasn't sure how much of that was based on historical record, if any. According to historical record, Cheonchu attempted to assassinate Wang Sun multiple times, but was saved by Mokjong every time. The only assassination attempt that's been recorded in detail is the poisoned food incident though. I'm not sure I'd say she's better than Chae Shira's version, it's apples and oranges. Her version is certainly more interesting, I'll give you that for sure lol. Chae Shira is the better actress for sure. However, Lee Minyoung's Cheonchu is the historically accurate Cheonchu. Chae Shira's Cheonchu is a disgrace to history and should've never aired on TV to begin with in my opinion. The gay thing, thinking about it more, I was very surprised at how heavily they leaned on it. In fact it felt like maybe it was inauthentic at times. When those officials by the Seogyeong gate were talking, they just sort of rolled their eyes about it rather than being horrified and disgusted like you'd expect. Goryeo was a pretty open society when it comes to sexuality. Korea only became ultra-conservative during Joseon dynasty, which adopted an extremely conservative version of Confucianism as its state ideology. If a Joseon king was openly gay, the king would've been ousted the moment everyone found about this, but the fact that Mokjong is still in power shows that people in Goryeo didn't care as much about homosexuality as Joseon did so the people not being horrified and disgusted is probably accurate. People aren't upset at Mokjong because he's gay in this drama, they're upset because he's spending too much time with his boyfriend instead of actually ruling whereas people would've been mad just because he was gay if this was Joseon.
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Post by sageuk on Nov 12, 2023 18:01:05 GMT -5
So are actors portraying the Khitans in the prologue speaking Khitan or modern Mongolian?
We’d have to ask someone who knows Mongolian
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Post by mugwump on Nov 12, 2023 18:12:54 GMT -5
Does the Khitan language survive anywhere?
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episode 1
Nov 12, 2023 18:18:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MTR on Nov 12, 2023 18:18:47 GMT -5
I agree with Truth on Chae Shira depiction of Cheonchu . I was expecting it to be something closer to Lady Jami from Emperor Of The Sea . Of course Ha Jiwon as Ki is an even bigger crime .
This one gets right into it that’s a huge plus, one episode and i have high hopes for this . It’s hard to go wrong when you have Choi Su Jeong in his usual stoic role . It makes his acting range seem limited on paper but in reality it works in historical dramas .
That’s really interesting about the terminology of the rulers titles from Emperor to Imperial majesty . It’s also interesting to learn that Goryeo was open about sexuality unlike Joseon .
I really hope this upcoming Queen Woo drama follows the lead of dramas like this and not the Ki/ Iron Empress route .
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Post by truth on Nov 12, 2023 18:22:15 GMT -5
So are actors portraying the Khitans in the prologue speaking Khitan or modern Mongolian? Modern Mongolian Does the Khitan language survive anywhere? No I really hope this upcoming Queen Woo drama follows the lead of dramas like this and not the Ki/ Iron Empress route . Unfortunately, I feel like it will be more similar to Ki/Iron Empress because Queen Woo isn't a traditional historical. KBS is the only TV network that does traditional historical dramas.
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Post by simisteve on Nov 13, 2023 0:08:15 GMT -5
I don't believe it, but last night (Saturday) just for fun I switched over to KBS America's local feed here in LA to see if there might be an announcement when this would air. To my amazement, I guess it was airing!!! There was a scene with the actor who I know is playing Mokjong with presumably his mother ("pay-ha" per the attendants) in her bathing room! YIKES! I don't remember THAT from IE!
Anyhow, the kicker is that IT WAS UNSUBBED!!! WTF? Why would KBS America show an unsubbed show? This is a first! I had no idea what was going on, and as I tuned in at 10pm (show would have begun airing at 930~940PM, presumably) the show was almost half-way thru, anyways. I turned it off after a few minutes of utter confusion. I'll tune in tonight (Sunday, 11/12) and see if it's still unsubbed, but I'm at a loss to explain this. And if Kocowa only shows the unsubbed version in the free time-slot, I guess it's Dramacool for me.
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Post by sageuk on Nov 18, 2023 13:52:19 GMT -5
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Post by truth on Nov 18, 2023 19:08:41 GMT -5
Goryeo's monarchs were called "Emperor" until Goryeo surrendered and was subjugated by the Mongols. Goryeo monarchs being called "emperor", "imperial highness", "imperial majesty", "His Holiness" is recorded in historical record and also written on tombs. This is why Mokjong is called Peha(Imperial Majesty) in this drama, instead of Chonna(Royal Majesty), which is what Late Goryeo era kings and Joseon kings were called. In Goryeo before surrendering to Mongols, Chonna(Royal Majesty) was reserved for Crown Prince. Goryeo monarchs before surrendering to Mongols = Peha(Imperial Majesty) Goryeo Crown Prince before surrendering to Mongols = Chonna(Royal Majesty) Goryeo kings after surrendering to Mongols and Joseon kings = Chonna(Royal Majesty) Goryeo Crown Prince after surrendering to Mongols and Joseon Crown Prince = Jeoha(Your Highness) Cheonchu refers to Mokjong as "Seongsang" in this drama, which means "Your Holiness" or "His Holiness" depending on context. Goryeo rulers being called "Seongsang" is a legitimate fact recorded in historical record. Goryeo rulers in later Goryeo period and Joseon kings were never called as Seongsang for the obvious reason I mentioned above. English info on Goryeo referring to their rulers as "emperors" Until 1270, when Koryŏ capitulated to the Mongols after thirty years of resistance, early Koryŏ rulers and most of its officials had held a "pluralist" (tawŏnjŏk) outlook that recognized greater and equal empires in China and in Manchuria, while positing Koryŏ as the center of a separate and bounded world ruled by the Koryŏ emperor, who claimed a ritual status reserved for the Son of Heaven. — Henry Em The rulers of Goryeo, or Haedong, used the titles of emperor and Son of Heaven. Imperial titles were used since the founding of Goryeo, and the last king of Silla addressed Wang Geon as the Son of Heaven when he capitulated. Imperial designations and terminology were widely used, such as "empress", "imperial crown prince", "imperial edict", and "imperial palace."The rulers of Goryeo donned imperial yellow clothing, made sacrifices to Heaven, and invested sons as kings. (Mere princes were given "king" titles and only the emperor can appoint kings) The Song, Liao, and Jin dynasties were all well informed of, and tolerated Goryeo's imperial claims and practices. In 1270, Goryeo capitulated to the Mongols and became a semi-autonomous "son-in-law state" of the Yuan dynasty, bringing an end to its imperial system. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeo#GovernmentSame info is written in the Chinese Wikipedia as well, which means the Chinese are also aware that Goryeo rulers were called emperors. zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E9%BA%97#%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB%E5%88%B6%E5%BA%A6I can provide the link to the original historical sources that call Goryeo rulers with imperial titles as well.
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