final thoughts on the series

[ajk]

Here it is. Everybody who watched LBKT, fire away. Impressions, thoughts, compliments, criticisms, whatever ya got.

I can't get to this one right away but I'll weigh in too.

[sageuk]

It’s probably because I already seen a series dealing with the foundation of the Joseon Dynasty, but I think the series a just barely a bit above average at best.

[mugwump]

Well, normally when a historical drama ends, I hand out various awards, none of which are to be taken too seriously.
However, this time I find myself with a dearth of raw material to work with. Some of this may have to do with the short length of the series, but also more likely the production values and story telling.
We were not subjected to:
Cliff jumping (although a poor horse was sacrificed)
Annoying comic relief characters
Hero as slave in his childhood, not knowing his true identity
Star-crossed young lovers
Sappy music playing every time we saw said lovers
General marching his army into a ravine (if there was, I don't remember)
And for that, I am thankful.

And yet there were a few worthies...
The Character Most in Need of a Good Smack Award goes to Lee Sook Beon.
The Kleenex Award goes to Queen Wongyeong. She also gets a coupon for a manicure at the Hanyang Nail Salon (you know, the same place all those brawny generals go to to get their nails so neatly trimmed, cleaned and buffed).
The Long-Lasting Lipstick Award goes to Choongnyeong. Or does he really have lips that red? Only his stylist knows for sure.
The Dumb Bunny Award goes to all the palace servants who did stupid things that came back to bite them because they thought they were protecting their master/mistress.
The Boy it Feels Good to be Good Award goes to the actor playing Min Jae. After what seems like a lifetime of playing scuzzballs, he finally got to play a sympathetic character.
And the Boy it Feels Good Being Bad Award goes to the actor playing the annoying Lee Sook Beon.

An enjoyable, well-written and well-acted show.

[MTR]

I missed a few eps here and there but i only have a few minor complaints

. I kept the volume off for the pounding drums .

The lowest point or most absurd was Bangwon’s stepmother/ evil Queen trying to strangle him as she was dying .

The pacing was probably my biggest complaint . It seemed they rushed through some stuff but dragged on in other parts of the drama . Regardless it was not enough to ruin the drama .

I have the whole thing downloaded ( 14 onward actually ) so i will watch it again as I missed about 10 eps .

I really liked the killing of Jong Mong-Ju . I had no idea he was killed in broad daylight or his body put on display with his head on a pole . Like making a statement . I always thought he was sneakily killed at night time

All in all i really liked it . It’s so great to have a traditional historical back and not one about the Japanese occupation for once ( I know it’s a huge subject but there have been so many dramas on that subject of recent I just need a break ) . No stupid love story or some guy rising from obscurity .

Tears Of The Dragon ( it’s not subbed ) remains the benchmark on this story . The scene in the last episode with Sejong at the Rain ceremony ( there was a draught ) . Bangwon appears and starts a litany of all the bad things he has done and people he has killed as the rain pours down was very powerful . I have been hoping to see that scene redone but maybe it only worked for that drama . I have not watched the whole thing due to no subs but the few episodes I have seen were great .

This is a subject that i am always interested in so I was more than happy with it . I’m so glad they did not cancel it because of the poor horse .

[ajk]

May 2, 2022 13:35:06 GMT -5 mugwump said:

The Kleenex Award goes to Queen Wongyeong. She also gets a coupon for a manicure at the Hanyang Nail Salon (you know, the same place all those brawny generals go to to get their nails so neatly trimmed, cleaned and buffed).

That is hilarious--never noticed it. Sorry I didn't get any screengrabs.

What I did notice was how perfect all of the teeth were, even by today's standards. Maybe we should toss a little love to the dentists too!

[mugwump]

You're right about the dental work. There have not been many characters with really bad teeth or even imperfect teeth. Maybe some of the older actors.

[simisteve]

Well, as usual I'm bringing up the rear here. Although LA broadcast episode 19 & 20 this weekend, I watched the balance of the series on Dramacool.

First off, THANK YOU to KBS for doing another KHD. I'll temper any criticisms of the show by understanding that they may need some time to get the KHD business rolling again. I'm looking forward to the next KHD!

Here's my .02:

Instead of the "different version of Bangwon" touted back in the hype leading up to the series (mentioned in the intro thread here, and teased in the opening scene), I saw the Bangwon I've come to know via KHDs. The cold-hearted ruthless killer and "tyrant"  (IMO) that has ruled the KBS dramas I've seen. I was glad to see his Queen call out his hypocrisy for claiming that was how a King was supposed to rule. It was good to see that, because this Bangwon really seemed full of it to me. He spent a lot of time making sure that the tools he used to ascend to power (powerful clans & private armies) couldn't be used against him, all while claiming that it was for the good of the Country. Yeah, right.  Paranoid much?

I got the impression that there was a change in the writing of the characters after the series suspension. It seemed to create a colder Bangwon than we'd seen to date, and the pace of the scenes picked up. Did anyone else notice that? The last 2 episodes could have been 4 easily, and they wouldn't have been so rushed.

The lead actor got better as the series went on, and once crowned King, he seemed to be more comfortable in his role.

As usual, KBS's has an excellent supporting cast. I've lost count how many times I've said that in the past to seemingly mediocre series' leads. Of note: the actor playing Sejong did bear a resemblance to Kim Sang-Kyung from GKS; the performances given by Kim Yung-Choul, Im Ho (what a treat to see him included), Kim Myung-Soo, and Sun Dong-Hyuk were very enjoyable and solid as ever.

As I've said before, KUDOS to the director of photography. And although I didn't mind the background music as much as some others (LOL), it needed to be padded down...the levels were too high.

A demerit to the translation team: they forgot to include translations of captions, especially the names of characters introduced for the first time. Thank goodness for the thread here listing the characters; for instance, it's how I figured out who Im Ho's character was.

And I'm disappointed in the omission of Jo Mal-Seng from this series. He was the living embodiment of Bangwon's mistrust of Sejong: LBW's plant inside the ministerial cabinet who was both an informant to Bangwon who then became the Minister of Military after Bangwon released his own hold on the position. This character was so unforgettable in GKS that it's omission here is odd. If you're going to include Hwang Hee, then Mal-seng should have been written in too (again, they needed at least another episode).

And finally, if this isn't TLDR enough for you: The opening scene. After watching the last episode, I went back and saw Ep 1 again. I think the scene still deserved to be included at the end, as the show was actually still written in that direction. Omitting it was wrong, although the Bangwon as-written towards the end couldn't fully confront the guilt for his actions, I think it would have fit in as a warning to Sejong, maybe it could have been a nightmare sequence right after Bangwon announces his abdication - to let Sejong realize the horrors the throne is capable of. I think the writers should have at least tried. It seemed high-handed to simply dismiss it the way they did, leaving us with a truly unrepentant LBW, despite his few minor "I've sinned" scenes here and there.

[ajk]

May 18, 2022 17:49:34 GMT -5 simisteve said:

Well, as usual I'm bringing up the rear here.

Guess again! lol I'm going to get to this soon and have a ton to post...but I want to do one thing first and that's watch "The Godfather." Only saw it once when I was a kid and don't remember it well, but apparently it was a big influence on this series and I'm curious to see if it explains some of the good and bad about the series. Hopefully this weekend, now that Call the Midwife is over for a while.

[sageuk]

After thinking about it, yeah, I can see the influence and comparison.

Father wants youngest son to be on a career path where he won’t have blood on his hands and has good expectations for his future.

The son ends up taking violent path anyway in the name of protecting his family, which causes his family relationships to deteriorate.

Of course, the biggest difference is that Michael Corleone never had to fight against his father.

[ajk]

Still have not had the chance to watch The Godfather. Hopefully this weekend…but it’s time to post the rest of this either way.

Overall the good outweighed the bad and the series was definitely worth watching. So it gets a thumbs-up for sure. Just not way up. Frustrating to think about what might have been.

Historical accuracy, well…A lot of it was very accurate, and they even portrayed some events that had been ignored by other series. So there was plenty to learn here, even if you had seen previous versions of the same time period, and that was a pleasant surprise. And they gave us interesting takes on some things—Jeong Mongju’s death in broad daylight, for instance. On the other hand, the writers took way, way too many unnecessary liberties and distorted too many things for the sake of drama. And once a series starts monkeying around like that, you lose trust in it and aren’t sure what’s real any more. And the monkeying around wasn’t even necessary.


The series reminded me of the gimmick you see sometimes in a story, when someone is trying to make a difficult decision and there are little angel and devil mini-me’s sitting on each shoulder, each trying to convince the person to see it their way. It felt like there was that sort of constant battle for control over the series.

On one hand, the series was trying to do something you just don’t get in historicals: a serious attempt to tell a historical story, combined with a character drama. And I think it succeeded. The characters we got, they were complete, three-dimensional people who felt real. The brothers, for instance—we got to know all five brothers as individuals much more than in other series, and understood each of them better. And the relationship between Bangwon and Lady Min, except for the stretch where she declared Make me co-ruler or kill me (blecch), their relationship was the best single thing about the series.

Even in the best series we’ve watched, you can get terrific story-telling but little or no character depth. Which is bad because you need that. Not only does it make the story more interesting but it helps you understand why things happened the way they did and what people’s motivations were. For me this was my favorite thing about the series, and I hope that the series to come are written the same way.

That was the angel side. But in the other ear was the DramaDevil. More drama! More drama! Louder! More intensity! After episode 1 I wrote that “It feels like they’re going to try to juice everything up and make it all extra-intense rather than just let the story tell itself and carry the series.” And that’s exactly what they kept on doing, for the whole series. They didn’t have the courage to simply let the story tell itself, even though the story was more than dramatic enough to stand on its own. They went to ridiculous lengths to manufacture drama, especially to set up forced confrontations, and to create cliffhangers at the ends of episodes, and even to hook viewers in at the beginnings. Regardless of historical accuracy. Then in the middle of the series they discovered crying and wailing, and at times the amount of crying and wailing became ridiculous.

To be fair, they did dial back on it somewhat as the series went on. Maybe they realized the problem and learned from it. But too little too late. It got to be exhausting and it constantly detracted from all of the good work that was being done in so many other ways.

Other strong and weak points, first the strengths:

--Visually it was as good as any series we’ve ever seen. Lots of beautiful location shots, and even the indoor scenes looked great. I posted a whole bunch of screenshots during the series just because a location or scene looked so good on screen; have never done so much of that before. Beautiful to look at.

--Going back and rewatching some parts of some episodes, I remembered that the incidental music was actually very good. Well written, nicely recorded, very sophisticated stuff for a TV series. How it was used…we’ll get to that.

--Ha Ryun. Can’t remember the last time I enjoyed a supporting character so much. A shame this was a short series because he was terrific.

--Give me this one…the scene in episode 12 with the royal physician. He diagnosed his patient, professionally and accurately, was treated with respect by everyone around him, and wasn’t hauled off to be executed or threatened with death for telling the truth. I literally do not remember ever seeing a physician scene like this before. It totally violated one of the most sacred KHD clichés, and I loved it.

--Joo Sang-wook's performance playing Bangwon. Plenty of people won’t like this, but I thought he was brilliant. Goes on the short list of my favorite KHD performances. No, this portrayal was not heavily dramatic or emotive. This was a realistic human being. You could constantly see the gears turning in his head and know what he was struggling with. The best comparison I can give is Mishil in QSD—amazing acting job, just the subtle little facial expressions and movements that tipped off what she was thinking.

The real Bangwon was a very, very complicated individual—yes a total selfish, obnoxious jerk to do all the things he did (and frankly it felt like the series went a little soft on him there). But he also wanted very much to be a good king and serve the country well. It wasn’t just about gaining power, it was about using it for the common good. What I wrote after episode 14, about how he was more silent and sullen than everyone around him: “Well sure he's going to be cold and distant. That's exactly the kind of behavior you expect from someone with the sort of psychological damage Bangwon has suffered from so much paternal disapproval and rejection. We've seen him move past outward injury and he's numb to the pain of it by now. This is what's gradually turning him into the ruthless person he comes to be.”  The way he evolved from the impulsive, rash hothead he was as a younger person, to more of a family leader, and then as he gained more and more wisdom and savvy, the strong and confident person he turned into…this is exactly what the real Bangwon must have been like. The way that this actor approached the character, it fit perfectly with the goal of this series to give us deeper characters.

The weaknesses…

--I never thought music would be so high up on a list of series weaknesses. And like I said, the music itself was very good. But the application…good grief. Very early on, of the thundering music with the rumbling bass and the pounding drums, it was getting way overused, trying to create intensity and drama all over the place. I was complaining about it as early as episode 7, and it just kept on and on and on, episode after episode. At times it was intolerable. Simple meetings and conversations treated like the fate of the nation was hanging in the balance. A few eunuchs get punished and you’d think the entire royal family is being murdered. You end up being desensitized to everything, even the things that warrant the music. And it wasn’t just the louder stuff, it was generally sticking too much music into too many places where it wasn’t needed or even hurt a scene.

--The opening scene of the first episode. A powerful king with eighteen years of experience, who’s already played the abdication card twice, he plays it once more and gets the same reaction as the previous two times, and has a total freakout meltdown tantrum over it. It made no sense and there was no way they could make it work in context. And sure enough…Has there ever been another scene in any historical that was flashbacked first, and then when it came up in real time was totally rewritten? What an embarrassment. Give them credit for redoing it, that was the best way out of the situation. But this was the producers at their most desperate for drama—blow away the audience right from the beginning, who cares if it makes any sense. Maybe this was part of why they dialed it down some in the later episodes, learning from this mistake. Whatever…an absolute stinker.

--The scene in episode 2 with Lee Jiran eating a dog, and it turns out the dog was an old man’s pet. And it was played for laughs. Even setting aside how inappropriate it was to advance the Koreans-eating-dogs stereotype, which it was…how could anyone think an old man losing his dog forever is funny? Not only did someone write this, but someone else approved it. Awful.

--One thing that I didn’t realize was a consistent problem until I went through the episode summaries was the physical combat. This wasn’t a war series so combat wasn’t a big part of it, but time and time again I had to point out some sort of obvious significant problem with everything from larger battles down to smaller confrontations inside the palace. Torch guys running around pointlessly in the middle of battles; contrived sequences to needlessly show killings of civilians; overchoreographed movements by entire squads; one problem after another. Not sure if this was the fault of the stunt coordinators, or the writers and producers imposing silliness on them and tying their hands. But it detracted from too many episodes.

--“His life was a tragic one, stained with blood, but to the people it was an era of peace.” It was? We sure didn’t get any feel for this. That line was from the end of the final episode, after he died. Shouldn’t the series have focused on the larger kingdom at least enough to tell that part of the story? This is the same thing I always crab about, getting too locked into bickering among the elites and neglecting the fate of the country outside of the palace walls. The few glimpses of the larger country we got, they were terrific, some of the most effective in any series we’ve seen. They told an important part of the story and were very powerful and moving. We needed more of them.

And then one final thing, can’t neglect the fate of the poor horse who died because of the stupid way they decided to film the LSG-falls-off-his-horse scene. It’s sickening to think that anybody thought it would be okay to treat a horse that way. I’m glad the rest of the people who worked on the series didn’t have their work thrown out over this, but it was a disgrace that KBS didn’t have precautions in place long ago to protect animals during filming. They say they have them now, well they better have them.


Bottom line, good series, could have been one of the best ones ever if they hadn’t kept shooting themselves in the foot. But in the end I’m just happy to see a new traditional historical being made again after such a long wait, and being able to watch it along with everyone else. And to know that it won’t be the only new one coming. Hooray.

[mugwump]

AJK, thanks for your final thoughts. I agree with you about not showing more about the common people. It also bothered me that, given the way father and son sought to justify their coups by saying they wanted to better the lives of the people and build the nation, we saw and heard remarkably little about the way they actually governed.

Joo Sangwook - I agree he gave a really good performance and I enjoyed watching every change in facial expression. But in my book, no one has ever approached the level of exquisite cunning and badness shown by the actress who played Mishil 😊.

[ajk]

Oh she's on my short list too...she did an amazing job, despite being hamstrung by utterly inept character-writing. It's amazing that she was able to make so much of that character.

The one thing that did help her was that the character was 99% fictional so she had a lot of freedom with it. So it's not a perfect comparison, not by a long way. Joo had terrific character-writing but had to portray someone real.


One thing that I forgot to mention was a big thank-you to truth for sharing so much good information about what was real and what wasn't in each episode. The level of detail was amazing. Thank you sir! Made our viewing of the series much better and more ineteresting.

(click for full size)

And one last photo that I screenshotted, from the closing credits. Nice pic.

Hopefully that covers everything. Now we wait for Hyeonjong. Impatiently!

[truth]

Lee Bangwon's actor won the Grand Award at the KBS Drama Awards today in Korea.

Congratulations!

[ajk]

Thanks truth, I wouldn't have heard about this otherwise. Well deserved; he was terrific.

[truth]

Just learned something new today.

The ancestor of today's Myeong clan in Korea was a Chinese emperor.

A peasant rebel leader named Ming Yuzhen established the dynasty of Ming Xia in today's Sichuan region of China during the late Yuan dynasty in China. This was a time when Yuan dynasty was falling apart and a lot of other peasant rebel leaders also established their own dynasties.

He passed away at the age of 35 and his young son Ming Sheng became the emperor at the age of 11.

When Ming Sheng was 16, his dynasty was destroyed by Zhu Yuanzhang, who was the founder of Ming dynasty.

Zhu Yuanzhang exiled Ming Sheng and his mother to Goryeo after taking over.

King Gongmin, knowing that this guy was once an emperor of his own dynasty, made him a Goryeo nobility.

His descendants became known as the Myeong clan since the Chinese character Ming is pronounced Myeong in Korean.

This means everyone with the surname Myeong in Korea are descendants of a Chinese emperor Ming Yuzhen even though his empire was a very short-lived one.

Actress Myeong Sebin is one famous descendant of Ming Sheng.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Yuzhen
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seochok_Myeong_clan





Ming Yuzhen's Ming Xia dynasty is the left bottom region that contains Chengdu and Chongqing.