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Post by ajk on Apr 17, 2022 15:15:43 GMT -5
...is up now, with English subtitles. As usual, be sure to watch it within 24 hours before it goes behind the paywall.
Incidentally, you notice that the series is getting subbed not only in English and Spanish but also Portugese? I've heard that these shows can get fanbases in unusual places but this is a new one...must be for Brazil, how about that.
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Post by mugwump on Apr 17, 2022 19:00:56 GMT -5
My, this is getting ugly again. Ministers turning on one another. More "traitors" getting rounded up.
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Post by ajk on Apr 17, 2022 22:24:11 GMT -5
Yeah it really is...and what got into Lee Sookbeon? He’s had ice water running through his veins since day 1 but all of a sudden he got all hot under the collar. Weird. So it started out with the queen putting up a good fight...but there were just too many of them. At first it was just plain bizarre: the king didn’t seem to want to do it; the prince clearly didn’t want to do it; obviously the queen wasn’t too thrilled about it either...but it happened anyway. It didn’t make a lot of sense... ...until Prince Choongnyeong sort of explained it later. And this turns out to be darned clever. The very act of the crown prince agreeing with the executions to show subservience is what got them executed, because his lack of initiative in resisting the executions is seen by his father as being too passive and so he’d be vulnerable to manipulation by his uncles and their family. You can disagree with his reasoning or not, but it’s a terrific piece of writing. Well done. Give Hwang Hee credit for being the only one to go talk to the queen after the meeting and say he’s sorry for her. Even Ha Ryun slinked away—I expected better from him. That didn’t make any of the other ministers look very good. And now it’s nighttime and she’s been out there screaming and crying for all those hours? Dang that’s some impressive endurance. For a while it was an excellent scene, and the actress did a good job of reminding us of her brothers’ innocence and how badly she was wounded. But it went on too long...when her fingers are bleeding from scraping the ground, enough already. And Taejong is actually standing out there the whole time? No he isn’t. Would not happen, no way. That went on for twelve minutes. Quit while you’re ahead, producers. And the same with the next scene, started out good and then not. It was proper to go the place of exile and see the uncles’ deaths. And it was nicely filmed, too, had the right touch. But the poison had them bleeding profusely from the mouth within a few seconds. What were they drinking, battery acid? Of course bleeding from the mouth is one of the sacred KHD clichés, but here it wasn’t done correctly and it made the whole thing look phony and amateurish. Go back and watch the sugar mommy in God of War, that’s how you do a self-poisoning right. Too bad; those guys deserved better. (Oh and neither one of them was shown actually starting and finishing the drinking out of the bowl. Of course not.) And the music was totally inappropriate, had almost a triumphant or honorable feeling that was way out of place. Whoever is making the music choices for this series is surpassed in incompetence only by the horse trainers. Crown prince, explaining to his mom: “I must show him that I obey if I am to take the throne sooner.” Well why didn’t he tell her that upfront? Next the princes vent some frustration at each other, completely understandable...but here we go with the pounding drums and the volume and the dissonance. Ugh. “Everyone but the Chief State Councilor may leave.” Uh-oh somebody’s gonna get it! ■ Lee Bangwon declared abdication again. With that, he subdued the people’s complaints about the drought, and tightened his subjects’ discipline. And on that basis, he strengthened the royal authority. Poor Banggwa, he deserved a happier retirement than to lose his wife so soon. And how sad that she passed without living longer and having some more years of relief after all of the stress that she was put through without any of it being her fault. But wow that was an awfully unconvincing death. They spent twelve minutes on the queen screaming and crying—couldn’t they take thirty seconds off of that to give her predecessor a better sendoff? Boooooo. “They are the army of the country that we have not had for the last 230 years.” That refers back to events in The Age of Warriors. Haven’t seen it yet so I can’t cite specifics, but that’s what he’s talking about. Great, now the crown prince is lousy-phony-drinking from an empty cup. Send that other guy to Jeju Island now that there’s room for him! So here we go again with another problematic ending. There was never any strife between Yangnyeong and Choongnyeong, at least not that I’ve never learned of, and it sure wasn’t portrayed that way in GKS. Yangnyeong losing the crown prince title was always about his own struggles and his feelings of inadequacy for the job. This stuff about little brother so aggressive and in big brother’s face--“You must never become king”—well now look at what we have. Not only is this completely false, but you’re showing the Great King Sejong, the amazing, revered monarch, getting his job by being a squealer. A fink. A rat. A tattletale. A stool pigeon. A narc. A snitch. Get the idea? I wonder how this is going to go over with the Korean audience. Certainly doesn’t bode well for the final four episodes.
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episode 28
Apr 17, 2022 22:39:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MTR on Apr 17, 2022 22:39:48 GMT -5
It must be doing alright as according to Soompi the ratings for this have been really good . It’s the no 2 Sunday show behind Our Blues . The horse incident does not seem to have had any impact on the ratings . Let’s hope KBS continue on this path .
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Post by sageuk on Apr 17, 2022 23:16:53 GMT -5
Wonder what that says about people in general if the fatal . mishandling of a horse didn’t affect the ratings.
Then again, I’m still watching so who am I to talk.
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episode 28
Apr 17, 2022 23:58:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝔰𝔢𝔞𝔫𝔪𝔞𝔠𝔩𝔞𝔦𝔯 on Apr 17, 2022 23:58:59 GMT -5
Does this mean they're going to skip out on Hyoryeong becoming a monk?
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Post by ajk on Apr 18, 2022 13:27:57 GMT -5
Oh they'll get him in there...they're probably just recording some more pounding drums and loud music to play while he tries to meditate.
I think people were satisfied with the steps that KBS took after the horse incident to make sure it won't happen ever again. Their first reactions weren't good enough at all, but the procedures that they came up with in the end showed that they took it seriously. I donate to animal welfare charities and would have walked away if they hadn't taken the right steps, but I'm okay with the outcome.
And it's good to hear that the ratings are okay; hopefully it locks in the Hyeonjong drama they announced.
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Post by sageuk on Apr 18, 2022 16:47:02 GMT -5
Speaking of things left to coverr but might not be covered:
Yi Bangwon’s regency while Sejong is on the throne The Gihae Expedition/Joseon’s invasin of Tsushima (they’re probabably not going to cover that but if it it is, probably a mention of it at best) Yi Bangwon going after Sejong’s in-laws the Shim family.
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Post by ajk on Apr 20, 2022 15:35:00 GMT -5
The Tsushima thing brings up a big point. Has there ever been a historical before that's paid so little attention to what's going on in the country? All we're getting is the power struggle inside the palace, and little or nothing about what the king is doing with that power. Yes I crab about this in pretty much every series we watch, but this one beats them all. Taejong was a very active king in a lot of policy areas but none of it has been touched (I guess the private armies thing is sort of the one exception, sort of).
To be fair this one is a shorter series than most...but it's almost like they don't want to put any substance into the story for fear that they'll chase people away.
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Post by simisteve on Apr 20, 2022 16:47:41 GMT -5
Speaking of things left to cover but might not be covered: THIS >>>>> Yi Bangwon’s regency while Sejong is on the throne AND THIS>>>Yi Bangwon going after Sejong’s in-laws the Shim family. I will be very curious if/how this is handled as I think the writer's have been painted into a corner, given the portrayal of the "tortured soul" Taejong in the opening scene of the series. Showing a sobbing, wailing King who is desperate to abdicate his throne to a stunned Sejong does not mesh with the history we've been showing in GKS and other series. How do they fit a King who put Sejong in Regency, and then, retained Military authority after the throne had been passed? And who did force Sejong to frame and execute his father in law? They've built up this narrative in the series to show an emotionally-scarred and distant Bangwon to justify the weeping weakling as shown in the opening scene. A narrative that confounds me, as I prefer the cold-blooded tyrant we've come to know is past series.
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Post by truth on Apr 21, 2022 10:07:10 GMT -5
And now it’s nighttime and she’s been out there screaming and crying for all those hours? Dang that’s some impressive endurance. For a while it was an excellent scene, and the actress did a good job of reminding us of her brothers’ innocence and how badly she was wounded. But it went on too long...when her fingers are bleeding from scraping the ground, enough already. And Taejong is actually standing out there the whole time? No he isn’t. Would not happen, no way. That went on for twelve minutes. Quit while you’re ahead, producers. This scene is based on historical record saying "Queen Wongyeong cried tears of blood after her brothers were killed" So here we go again with another problematic ending. There was never any strife between Yangnyeong and Choongnyeong, at least not that I’ve never learned of, and it sure wasn’t portrayed that way in GKS. Yangnyeong losing the crown prince title was always about his own struggles and his feelings of inadequacy for the job. This stuff about little brother so aggressive and in big brother’s face--“You must never become king”—well now look at what we have. Not only is this completely false, but you’re showing the Great King Sejong, the amazing, revered monarch, getting his job by being a squealer. A fink. A rat. A tattletale. A stool pigeon. A narc. A snitch. Get the idea? I wonder how this is going to go over with the Korean audience. Certainly doesn’t bode well for the final four episodes. Actually, this scene was based on history. Choongnyeong did report all of Yangnyeong's wrongdoings to Taejong, which got Yangnyeong to dislike him. You keep mentioning GKS as a source of historical accuracy. I haven't watched that show, but maybe that drama isn't so accurate after all. Main character of that drama is Sejong, so of course they have to make him look like a saint. Yangyeong losing the crown prince title was not about his own strugggles or his feelings of inadequacy for the job. He is often portrayed to have quit the Crown Prince on his own, which is absolutely false. He was stripped off the title for his wrongdoings such as drinking out with girls as shown in this episode and illegitimate sexual relationship with someone else's concubine. Yangnyeong sort of gets his revenge on Sejong by backing Prince Suyang after Suyang's coup. He wouldn't have done that if he willingly gave up the Crown Prince position. He even slept with his son's concubine in his later years, which led his son to attempt suicide. They've built up this narrative in the series to show an emotionally-scarred and distant Bangwon to justify the weeping weakling as shown in the opening scene. A narrative that confounds me, as I prefer the cold-blooded tyrant we've come to know is past series. Taejong may have been cold-blooded, but he was not a tyrant. Tyrant is someone like King Yeonsan, not Taejong. Yes, he is cold-blooded for killing his teacher Jeong Mongju, Jeong Dojeon, his half-brothers and in-laws. But he is actually regarded as one of the good kings of Joseon. Not as great as his son Sejong, but he was still a good king. I finally caught up with all episodes. I may not be able to watch the next episodes on time as well though.
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Post by ajk on Apr 22, 2022 23:15:48 GMT -5
Tears of blood, I suppose as a metaphor for her blood relatives....Maybe the producers would like credit for working real blood in there, but grabbing the ground to produce it didn't make a lot of sense, frankly.
As far as the two brothers...If little brother reported big brother's bad behavior then I'm wrong about that and retract the criticism. There is a difference between his being obligated to do it by his father and being the brat he came off as in this episode, which is what bothered me...but to some extent it's the same thing so fair enough.
As far as them having a bad relationship, this is the first I've ever heard of it in many sources, including a history professor I emailed with during GKS (although looking back on it he may have been talking more about their later years after Sejong took the throne). I had always understood that Yangnyeong visited the palace in his later years and whatever animosity there had ever been was gone by then. Of course I accept what you're telling me but it certainly suggests a whole lot of misinformation out there for Sejong's benefit. Well it's not worth pursuing at this point, we're too close to the end.
The wrongdoings you mention, that's exactly what I meant by "his own struggles"--impulses and demons that he couldn't stay clear of. If that suggested he voluntarily stepped down, that was not my intention at all.
We had a lot of people here when GKS was running, and it got pretty high marks for accuracy. They didn't show him as overweight...which apparently he was...and apparently he had quite a private life, which we saw none of. I shouldn't be referring to it as a rigorous source of accuracy down to the last detail because it wasn't. But it was very well received and the board turned out to be maybe the most historically interesting one we've ever done here.
Thanks for the group of helpful posts, as usual...hope everything in your life is turning out okay.
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Post by ajk on Apr 22, 2022 23:20:47 GMT -5
p.s. Oh and steve that opening scene, which I absolutely hated, by this point it's hard to see how we can take it seriously at all. It's even turned into to a continuity error. We've seen Taejong play the abdication card multiple times now and he knows exactly how the officials react to it. The idea that all of a sudden this time he's having a temper tantrum about it, well unless he had hit his head and gotten some sort of amnesia it doesn't make any sense at all.
We'll see if they connect up to it in the final episode and we see it again. But it seems pretty clear now that it was all about juicing the scene up for more drama like this series is addicted to doing.
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Post by sageuk on Apr 22, 2022 23:35:38 GMT -5
As far as them having a bad relationship, this is the first I've ever heard of it in many sources, including a history professor I emailed with during GKS (although looking back on it he may have been talking more about their later years after Sejong took the throne). I had always understood that Yangnyeong visited the palace in his later years and whatever animosity there had ever been was gone by then. Of course I accept what you're telling me but it certainly suggests a whole lot of misinformation out there for Sejong's benefit. Well it's not worth pursuing.. : In the Sejong Annals, there is a lot of mention of the king having seemingly friendly relations with his elder brother. Or at the very least, Sejong trying to be good to his brother. This must be what the professor was referring to. Source: esillok.history.go.kr/Put Yangnyeong in the search engine and you’ll find the below quotes. By the way, this site’s English translation of Sejong’s annals is incomplete. It covers the Shim family incident and the Tsushima expedition but the creation of Hangul isn’t covered. Side note: I didn’t get brat vibes when Chungnyeong revealed that he ratted his brother out. I saw it as the decent thing to do.
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Post by simisteve on Apr 24, 2022 15:39:15 GMT -5
Truth, I used the term "tyrant" to describe an absolute, ruthless ruler. BangWon, as shown in JDJ, GKS, etc has been portrayed as someone who did NOT agree with the Joseon model as proposed by JDJ,etc with a King who listened to his court/advisers in a Confucian Society. BangWon wanted the King to have total authority, and made his rule a model of that. I remember a scene depicted slightly differently both in GKS and in the follow-on Jang Young-Sil series where Taejong essentially threatens to kill his senior advisers (I've forgotten why), but then relents and decides to let them live and is hailed by the court for being such a benevolent ruler as he does a mic-drop and leaves the stage (LOL). To me, that's a tyrant. But, it's all a matter of perspective.
AJK, I'm so far behind in the series now, I've not seen any of his threats to abdicate (I just finished ep 15), so bear with me.
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