|
Post by ajk on Dec 8, 2009 16:09:41 GMT -5
Okay, I've posted the last summary so now the entire series is fair game. Everybody can fire away and share their thoughts about the series as a whole--loved it, hated it or wherever you are in between. I have a few thoughts of my own but will step back for the moment and let everybody else go to it.
|
|
|
Post by tinkerbell on Dec 8, 2009 18:44:46 GMT -5
Many things bothered me about this drama. Except for the fake bears, I liked the show in the beginning. After awhile it went downhill. For starters, I began disliking the supposed heroes and enjoyed seeing the Khitans more. I loved every scene with Gang Gamchan especially his detective work and Generals Yang Kyu and Kim Sukheung were refreshing. I lost all respect for Gang Jo after the way he treated the former King and Queen and his longing for Hunae went overboard. What are the odds that all the kings had major anger issues? King Mokjong/Song acted exactly like his father (crazy, drunk and incompetent) even though King Gyeongjong died when he was an infant. He didn't learn the behavior by example. He was such a tragic figure in the drama that my heart ached for him. The portrayal of Empress Dowager Cheonchu bothered me the most. She was so dedicated to the country that she became a fierce warrior and built up the military. Thanks to her the country was able to stand up to Liao. Most of the positive changes in the kingdom were attributed to her and she was completely innocent and was tricked by the devious Kim Chiyang. He pretended to be a Jurchen but in reality he was from Shilla according to the drama. From what I've read he was a close relative of ED Cheonchu perhaps a cousin. I got sick of the bladed boomerang and the constant poisonings. I didn't like the way Queen Munhwa/Lady Yunheung was made into a conniving villain. The Martial Arts Contest was more of a comedy than anything else. The ridiculous situations were too numerous to count. Anyone else?
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Dec 9, 2009 11:47:39 GMT -5
Okay, IE wasn’t the worst historical ever . . . but I’d say that it does rank somewhere down near the bottom. Low points: 1. Warped history. We expect a lot of “fill in the blanks” stuff in historicals, and that’s okay as far as it goes. But, IE sets a new record on twisting history to suit the writer’s whims. 2. Silliness. The “bladed boomerang” takes the cake here, but there was more than enough to go around. I mean, just how seriously can you take a historical drama that illustrates such foolishness? 3. Sub-par performances by the lead actors. Disappointing all around. 4. Bad plot continuity. Having entire cities move from the west coast to the east coast is an indication that the writer isn’t taking the project all that seriously. Now, granted: a lot of these continuity errors would probably have escaped my notice had ajk not pointed them out. But still . . . if ajk can spot them, why couldn’t the writer? Or the director? On the plus side (pretty slim pickin's here) the secondary actors weren’t bad at all. Gang Gamchan and Gang Jo were both memorable characters (though Gang Jo did get a little annoying towards the end). Too bad there just weren’t enough positives to offset all of the show’s negatives. I’d give it a “D” grade.
|
|
|
Post by MTR on Dec 9, 2009 19:51:48 GMT -5
Actually what would be a worse drama than this ??.
Im just curious because it was the weakest i have seen to date but by and large they are all great , Also as this went of the air before its time i actually missed it and began to feel bad for all my griping ,better than nothing at least .
|
|
|
Post by simisteve on Dec 10, 2009 0:51:28 GMT -5
I don't even know where to start....
While the writers, lead actors, and continuity staff all share blame, ultimately it comes down to the producers, as the buck stops there.
This series never seemed to know what it wanted to be: Historical Drama, or Martial Arts show, or soap opera??? This is the producers fault.
The writers were just out of their class. At times, there were some well-written and surprising scenes (when Mokjong killed his consort, comes to mind), but mostly it was pretty predictable. And using the same tired scenarios over and over again to kill time (how many endless battle scenes did we have to watch?) or get out of a writing predicament (that stupid scene with Dokyun jumping straight out of her horse).
And forget the bladed boomerang, and phoney bears. Sheesh!
The continuity? 'nuff said.
And the leads? Honestly, they never seemed even interested in their characters. Kim Chiang seemed to read off cue-cards a lot (there are a lot of scenes where he doesn't make direct eye contact with whomever he is talking to, as if he was looking at cue cards). And Cheonchu, well, again, this was an actress who wasn't really into it. And the difference between them and the supporting cast bears that out. They were splendid.
This series had it tough from the start, coming off the excellence of GKS, which IMO was one of the finest TV series I have ever seen, regardless of Country of Origin. That series did almost everything right, and was even better that AOW. I especially appreciated the little things in that series: The Ming characters spoke Mandarin, as they should have; I can't imagine that the Khitan in the 12th century would have spoken Korean as they did in IE???
well, that's my .02 - this series was a disappointment from the start, and frankly we kept watching till the end because we wanted to see how they'd write themselves out of the mess they started.
|
|
|
Post by jojo on Dec 10, 2009 8:25:03 GMT -5
I think things got off to a bad start (not counting the completely unbelievable trained attack bears in Ep 1) with King Sungjong and the ridiculous prophesy about Queen Hunae, aka Cheonchu. His over-the-top fear of her sent the two of them down the road of bad character & plot development.
Generally, for the entire series, I found too many inconsistencies in the lead role characters that I didn't have any empathy for them.
The highlight of the series for me was King Gyeongjong. Choi Chul Ho’s performance of this crazy king was brilliant.
|
|
|
Post by MTR on Dec 10, 2009 20:01:59 GMT -5
From Ep 2 through 22 it was pretty decent ,especially the young Hunae ,than it seemed to go off the rails ,an overacting Chae Sira ,Ol Kimmy Sue ,a totally bored Gang Gamchan ,Luv Sick Gang Jo oh we could go on ,still it sounds like the last 10 eps were pretty decent , KBS Producers must have watched Seon Deok and wept ,wishing they had gotten this right But whats shocking is this came right after Sejong and Kingdom Of The Winds two of the best i have seen and we expected the same from this . Considering the history behind this ,this should have been a stunning drama yet KBS Blew it . I said in an earlier post if KBS had dumped the Gladiator Stuff as well as much of the romance and stupidity then played Cheon Chu as an Elizabeth 1st type this could have been great .
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Dec 11, 2009 10:49:01 GMT -5
Actually what would be a worse drama than this ??. Well, okay . . . ;D Actually, I also gave “Dae Jo Young” a “D” grade. For some reason, I REALLY didn’t like DJY. I even quit watching it about 2/3 of the way through – thus making DJY the first (and, so far, only) Korean historical that I’ve actually quit watching. And yes, I’m well aware that I’m in the minority on this. And no, I don’t know why I stuck with IE to the very end, either. The worst Korean historical ever is probably the joint KBS/North Korean drama “Six Martyred Ministers.” Now, it wasn’t that it was corny, or even all that historically inaccurate. It was just that the North Koreans seemed to have no idea of how to write a proper drama show. The storyline was just going in all directions, suddenly dead-ending, and then heading off somewhere else for no apparent reason. Actually, the second half of SMM wasn’t too bad. The first half, though, was just dreadful.
|
|
|
Post by brooklyn on Dec 11, 2009 23:25:44 GMT -5
This is my second historical and it's been my worst so far. On the positive, it makes for a good comedy.
|
|
|
Post by MTR on Dec 14, 2009 18:31:19 GMT -5
Look at it this way though now we have no historical drama at all (boo hoo!!!!!)even at its worst its still better than nothing though . Good new's though "ONDAL THE FOOL" should hit the tube by the end of 2010 ,Obviously the next two dramas Chuno (not really a historical this is more like KBS trying to recapture Damo ,actually it started in Korean on the 10th ),than we have this drama about Joseon Dynasty Merchants and of course Light Of The East both set in late 19th /early 20th century )so ONDAL is about a year away . sucks as well cause we really have no Historical Drama board for a while .
|
|
|
Post by tinkerbell on Dec 21, 2009 17:55:57 GMT -5
I think things got off to a bad start (not counting the completely unbelievable trained attack bears in Ep 1) with King Sungjong and the ridiculous prophesy about Queen Hunae, aka Cheonchu. His over-the-top fear of her sent the two of them down the road of bad character & plot development. Generally, for the entire series, I found too many inconsistencies in the lead role characters that I didn't have any empathy for them. The highlight of the series for me was King Gyeongjong. Choi Chul Ho’s performance of this crazy king was brilliant. I feel the same way jojo. In the beginning I was hooked. I really liked the young Hunae and King Gyeongjong's crazy act. Song aka King Mokjong is doing a great job acting crazy too but we already saw that with his father so it seems like overkill. I did feel empathy for Hunae when her brother took her baby away. In history the Prince did grow up in the palace but if King Seongjong did take her child, it was probably due to her irresponsibility and lifestyle. My empathy for Gang Jo eventually died too. His longing for Hunae went on and on. The one character I feel very sad for is King Mokjong. What a tortured soul.
|
|
|
Post by zorro on Dec 25, 2009 9:35:10 GMT -5
Take my review with a grain of rice since I didn't see the whole thing.
I did read the summaries which were much appreciated, (the only thing missing was the "giddyup" music at the beginnings and endings) but I'm more of a "see the movie versus read the book" kind of guy as far as things sticking with me. Frustrating to read about new characters I can't put a face to.
From what I remember though ep 63:
MAP award (most admired performance) to Mokjong, my vote for most complex and interesting character. As wacky as he was, his perceptions were right on for the most part. Had he really wanted the throne I think he could have made a better Iron Emperor than his drama mama. Honorable mention to Saila for her grief scene after Hyangbi dies in her arms. Grief is the price we pay for love. Very moving.
LAP award to Cheonchu (Gesundheit…) for her wooden, not iron performance. Such a letdown after her Lady Jami role in EOS. Honorable mention to the Goryeans in general who were a pretty boring bunch compared to the much more interesting and edgy Liaotians.
Funniest moment for me was Dokyun coming on to Gang Jo. I LOL at that scene. Least funny was Kimmee Sue shooting Hyangbi in the back. A real Jerken to the core.
Which leads me to the most annoying premise in the whole series… Kimmee and his evil twin Sue. Lame. Honorable mention: Yelu Dilie's beard beads waving in the air whenever he spoke, which brought back memories of John Belushi's bee antennae on SNL.
I had my say in the random thoughts thread plenty, so I'll stop now. Besides, I'd like to read ajk's take, since he's most informed to offer one.
All that said, I'd suffer through this whole thing again if it meant we still had our station on.
Like the song says: Don't it always seem to go…? You don't know what ya got til it's gone. The KBS… put up a parking lot.
|
|
|
Post by ajk on Dec 28, 2009 15:27:28 GMT -5
Most informed? I don't know, zorro--most deranged, okay. Either way, everybody else made the effort to share and I've been dragging my feet. But here goes.
I had to laugh that people would mention the bears of all things. Last weekend I was watching Svengoolie's annual showing of "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians" (and if you've never seen the movie, yeah it's every bit as bad as it sounds). It has a scene with a polar bear stalking around in snowy darkness. That bear walked around EXACTLY like the bear in the IE cave, right down to the high-stepping. I had seen the movie before but this time I cracked up at the bear, and then groaned because IE didn't do any better than one of the silliest movies ever made.
Anyway, as far as the big picture, reading everybody else's comments I pretty much just nodded along. Everybody nailed it and mentioned nearly everything I would have mentioned. Generally I was disappointed too--didn't really dislike it, just disappointed. This could have been a very good series. Even with what seemed like a tough choice for a title character, it was an eventful time in history and the series could have been very good. And there were some scenes and even a few episodes that were excellent. But those just made it painfully obvious that the rest of the series fell short and was nowhere near as good as other series have been. I kept wondering why the producers couldn't see those good parts and realize that they needed to get the whole series up to that level.
The biggest thing that I can add to what's already been said is about the main characters. People complained that the leads were boring, and I agree. But I don't blame the actors so much; I blame the completely inadequate main storyline. The whole premise about all of those Shillans fleeing hundreds of miles north to Jurchen territory, and apparently becoming forgotten and unnoticed by the outside world, and a hundred years later their descendants' descendants are burning with self-sacrificing rage to overthrow Goryeo? It just wasn't believable. Not that it's impossible, but it's a tough sell and the series never made any effort to sell it. Johnny Carson always used to say, "You buy the premise, you buy the bit." As in, people will laugh at a piece of comedy if you can get them to accept the premise of it. Lots of times during IE I remembered that idea, because the whole premise behind the main storyline was just sort of tossed out there lazily. What actor can look good with such unexciting, uninspiring material? With a great series like IYSS or GKS, you're always eager to get to the TV and see the next episode. But for most of IE there just wasn't anything compelling or urgent in the storyline.
And talk about lazy writing: That business near the end where all of those warrior monks suddenly became a menacing force, and half of the entire Goryean army just suddenly changes sides? Where did all of that come from? It was just sort of announced and we're supposed to accept it. Maddeningly irritating; you feel like you're being jerked around. And then the actual rebellion, after dozens and dozens of episodes of foreshadowing and buildup, it's over in less than two episodes? Chiyang stands there in the palace courtyard, watches Sa Gamun get killed and then just sort of shrugs his shoulders and gives up? That was awful. This stuff just wasn't thought out properly. You need to have a good plan and a clear vision for how a series like this will unfold, and IE just didn't have it. Too much time dawdling with not much happening, and then the important stuff just blows right by.
What was really frustrating about it all was that if the series had simply stuck to real history, the storyline would have been much better and could have been a classic. We know that in real history it was Gang Jo who eliminated the Chiyang faction and bounced Mokjong from the throne. Why not stick with that? Think about a story where Gang Jo, after seeing the woman he loves spurn him for Chiyang and give Chiyang more and more authority, starts getting frustrated and angry and starts putting together his own faction to rival Chiyang's. And while the two sides are jockeying for power behind the scenes, Cheonchu is trying to keep the peace, and the pressure slowly unglues her and she starts making bad decisions, and it gradually turns the people against her. And rather than a two-episode rebellion, we could have had a gradual escalation of all kinds of faction-against-faction intrigue and plotting to go with the military stuff. How cool would that have been? Instead we saw Gang Jo as brainlessly loyal, and Cheonchu as victimized and blinded by love. It seemed like the producers were so focused on trying to turn those two into sympathetic characters, they forgot that the point of it all is to produce an entertaining series.
The physical silliness: In the previous series we watched King Sejong do a rigorous study of human speech and physiology to create the Hangul alphabet. And it was interesting, too. From that we go to a series where gravity is optional and a razor-sharp boomerang kills people and can fly around corners. What were they thinking? I kept wondering if the Korean audience was as bugged by it as we were. IE wasn't promoted as a "fusion" series with the wild stunts, so why put them in? Fortunately there weren't many of them, but they were all groaners to the point of distraction.
Continuity and historical errors: WAY too many. Some of them didn't jump out at you unless kept very close track or unless you did extra research on tax policy or whatever. But when a prince goes to live in a temple, and then a few episodes later the temple has a different name? That's inexcusable. The occasional obscure one you can forgive, but there were obvious ones and too many of them. (Have to wonder if some of this might have been caused by a tight shooting schedule. Remember when the Chiyang actor was injured and we learned that the episodes were being filmed less than a week before they aired? You can't do much quality control when everything is rushed.)
Two other negatives worth mentioning. Mokjong--was he gay or wasn't he? That whole business about him sleeping with Hangan but taking drugs to do it, what a total copout. If you're gonna gay him up, then do it. Apparently trying to have it both ways--make him gay but not really gay so nobody gets offended by the idea of him being gay? Ugh.
And Lady Yunheung, the series totally squandered her. To me she was the most interesting character in the series. She was so principled, even standing up to her own father; kept trying to do the right thing, even as circumstances beyond her control were boxing her in. But then the series turned her into a one-dimensional baddie, and then at the end a lunatic stage mom pushing for her kid's success. This was a real black mark against the writers. They didn't even know a good thing when they had it.
Okay, now a few positives. People mentioned the supporting characters, and I'm glad because there were actually quite a few good ones. A few others besides the ones people mentioned: Early on there was that Khitan general Xiao Sunning--I loved his charisma and the way he could intimidate people just by looking at them. Wish we'd seen more of him. Nobody mentioned Khitan empress dowager Chengtian, but lots of posts mentioned her during the series and she was a terrific character. People even said her story would have been better than Cheonchu's; hard to argue. And I have to confess to getting completely caught up in the Gyeongjuwon/Princess Seol thing. They were both naive to the point of goofy, but their love was so sincere, how could you not root for them. A shame that Seol died; the series lost something when she left it.
Which brings up another positive. For all of the distorting of the main characters' history, the series did make the effort to get things right sometimes. Things like killing off Seol when the record is sketchy and most viewers probably would have loved to keep her in the whole series. And as it went on, the series seemed to try harder to give us narration with historical background to support things. And there were some things like that scene near the end when we met Kim Eunbu and his three daughters. A historically interesting scene like that is worth watching an entire episode for. Maybe the series shouldn't get credit since there were so many distortions, but I'll give credit where credit is due, in the interest of encouraging good behavior. It might have been the initial negative reaction to the series in Korea that shaped them up a bit, but whatever. It could have been worse.
And finally, (along the same lines,) I liked how the last episodes showed Cheonchu unpopular with most of the Goryean people after she left the throne. When the series started and the producers gave us that Joan-of-Arc-of-Korea stuff, we worried they were going to make a fairy-tale character out of her. But in the end they gave us an interesting concept of how she COULD have ended up viewed as unfavorably as the historical record views her while still trying to do the right thing for the most part, and not being a sleazeball. No question she was depicted favorably to the point of being implausible. But there's that old saying about history being written by the winners. Is it possible that what little was recorded about her has some bias in it? I liked that the series left me thinking about that.
Overall I thought IE was just sort of mediocre. Obviously nowhere near IYSS or GKS. Compared to DJY, its best parts weren't as good as DJY's best parts (some parts of DJY were very good, mainly in the first few dozen episodes), but its worst parts weren't as bad as DJY's worst parts. So kind of a bland mediocrity. It's a shame; so much work goes into a series like this one, it ought to be excellent.
Still, even a mediocre one of these historicals is better than most of what's on TV, right? You learn a lot, one way or another, and when there are the bad parts we can come here and make fun of them. With the current Chicago situation, I’d take another IE in a minute.
|
|
|
Post by MTR on Dec 31, 2009 17:50:33 GMT -5
Actually this was more accurate than DJY which made a family of turncoat Generals into National Hero's . At least they seem to have Cheonchu's character down ,initially i thought she was a female Caligula but we learned through posts that she was very statesman like her only weakness being Kimmy Sue . After watching what replaced Empress being Hot Blood and this modern take on Ondal i take back every bad thing i said about IE .
Still next year we will see IE 2 where the Bears take over Koryo and institute Grizzly Power !.
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Jan 1, 2010 11:54:24 GMT -5
I've got to agree on both issues. I recall in GKS where the consort (fuzzy memory here, but I think it was Sejong's consort) was illustrated in an overtly lesbian relationship. It was so graphic (by K-drama standards, at least) that they even cut the scene from my TAN satellite channel's broadcast! But, in IE, we never really knew if Mokjong was gay or not. And playing games like that with the viewer is silly. Please, just lay it out to us straightforwardly, or skip the issue altogether. And I really loved Lady Yunheung in the early going as well. She was one of the few characters in the show who really seemed complex and interesting. Her deterioration into a cardboard-cutout kind of K-drama villian really irritated me. One final note: I loved the *young* Hunae in the early episodes. She really had the fire and spirit I like to see. It was such a disappointment that Chae Si-ra couldn't carry that on when she took over the acting role.
|
|