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Post by ajk on Sept 16, 2009 13:15:49 GMT -5
Does a groan and head-banging count as a comment? I know, jojo, I have the same problem. You listen and follow the subtitles and you try to catch a word or phrase you recognize, and then you can't even catch some of the names because they don't sound like they look. I pretty much gave up during Dae Joyoung. Not only stuff like "Khitan," but the one that did it for me was the goofy Chinese general. His name was spelled Li Wen, so of course you expect it to sound like "lee when." But no. It sounds like "Yee Moon." AAUGH.
I know there have been different romanization schemes over the years, but I just wish somebody would once and for all come up with something that represents the words as they sound, and stick to it.
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Post by mikey on Sept 16, 2009 14:14:10 GMT -5
here's a link to a Wikipedia article about the Khitan people. It's quite good and includes a small map that might make things clearer for some IE viewers. And I can certify it as spoiler-free. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khitan_peopleTerrific Wiki link - thanks! Interesting to me that the English word “Cathay” (which usually refers to China - consider Hong Kong’s “Cathay Pacific Airways”) seems to have originated from the word “Khitan.” Apparently, the early Brits didn’t bother to distinguish between the ethnic Chinese and the ethnic Khitans. ;D
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Post by MTR on Sept 16, 2009 17:05:45 GMT -5
Though they hate to admit it a large part of Japan being all the coastal area's and the East were descended from immigrants who fled from Paekche ,Gaya ,Goguryeo and even to a lesser extent Shilla and Balhae my belief is the Samurai Class originated from these refugee's ,i can even list the Samurai Families that came from Korea ,funny though most of the Samurai Clans in the Imjin War were of Korean Descent .Anyway for the longest time both country's spoke the same language ,The Famed Japanese Empress Jingu Kogo was said to have been born in East Puyo and was a Queen of Gaya before settling in Japan . There is a book titled "History Of The 5 Dynasties "i forget the author but it has a complete History of Khitan and claims them as a Chinese Dynasty but its written by a Chinese author and the Chinese also claim Goguryeo as being Chinese . Anyway to the point at hand around this time pretty much both Japan ,Koryeo ,Khitan ,all adopted Chinese Dress ,Language (at least the upper classes )and writing and even taught Chinese History over their own .
How very cool this post started as pretty much a shallow topic for the guys about strong appealing women in the drama and moved to this great historical debate about linguistics .
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Post by Candylover on Sept 16, 2009 20:12:08 GMT -5
Does a groan and head-banging count as a comment? I know, jojo, I have the same problem. You listen and follow the subtitles and you try to catch a word or phrase you recognize, and then you can't even catch some of the names because they don't sound like they look. I pretty much gave up during Dae Joyoung. Not only stuff like "Khitan," but the one that did it for me was the goofy Chinese general. His name was spelled Li Wen, so of course you expect it to sound like "lee when." But no. It sounds like "Yee Moon." AAUGH. I know there have been different romanization schemes over the years, but I just wish somebody would once and for all come up with something that represents the words as they sound, and stick to it. Ajk, although I admit the notorious romanization issue in Korean, basically that's not a problem of romanization, but a problem of different pronouncing ways of Chinese characters by Koreans and Chinese. Before the invention of Hangul, there had been no writing system in Korea, so Koreans at the time had to learn how to pronounce each Chinese character, but the pronouncing way could not or did not always catch up with that of Chinese. So the pronunciations of Chinese characeters evolved respectively in Korea and China, enhancing the gap between them as time passsed by. To be short, the pronunciations of Chinese names you hear in Korean historicals are not Chinese, but Korean while the subtitled pronunciations of Chinese names are Chinese, not Korean. Although Chinese names and Korean names both were written in Chinese character at the time, the pronunciations were different in Korea and China - consider how "Charles" or "Michael" is pronounced in French and English - maybe the same spelling, but different pronunciations. One example! Perhaps you know what Chinese characters look like. Do you see the two Chinese characters below? ì°Ùþ The first character (ì°) means a surname, and is pronounced as Li in Chinese, and as Lee in Korean - nearly the same pronunciation despite of the difference of romanization (Li and Lee). But, contemporary Koreans tend to replace L with Y when words start with L, which is why Lee is replaced with Yee or Yi in pronunciation - Consider that Lee Soon-Shin is usually pronounced as Yi Soon-Shin. (Yee and Yi are just two different or disordered romanizations of the same sound) The second Chinese character (Ùþ) is a first name, which is pronounced as Wen in Chinese but Moon in Korean. It's really interesting that the same character is pronounced absoultely differently - Wen and Moon - isn't it? How come? Ùþ is pronounced as - Wen in Chinese - Moon in Korean - Boon in Japanese - ? in Vietnamese (I don't know the Vietnamese pronunciation) Now, we must resort to ancient Chinese phonology to understand what brought the difference. According the prominent Swedish phonologist B. Karlgren and other phonologists of ancient Chinese, the second character, which is pronounced as Wen in contemporary Chinese, was pronounced as Miwen in the time of Confucius (more than 2,500 yeara ago), and Miuen in Sui and early Tang dynasty. As this example demonstartes, Korean way of pronouncing Chinese character is generally considered to reflect more ancient Chinese pronunciations than contemporary Chinese; ever since Chinese characters began to be used in Korea about 2,000 years ago, the ancient pronunciations stuck in Korean unlike those in Chinese.
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Post by consoleman on Sept 16, 2009 22:47:28 GMT -5
How about the pronunciation of the words Khitan or Liao? It sounds like I'm hearing 'kor-an' for Khitan (same as in DJY). I have no idea where the r sound is coming from. Can't figure out Liao at all. Anyone have any comments? It would have sound more like "Khitai", which is Turkish word for Qidan or Khitan. Interesting to me that the English word “Cathay” (which usually refers to China - consider Hong Kong’s “Cathay Pacific Airways”) seems to have originated from the word “Khitan.” Apparently, the early Brits didn’t bother to distinguish between the ethnic Chinese and the ethnic Khitans. ;D correct Cathay means Khitan which comes from Khitai Though they hate to admit it a large part of Japan being all the coastal area's and the East were descended from immigrants who fled from Paekche ,Gaya ,Goguryeo and even to a lesser extent Shilla and Balhae my belief is the Samurai Class originated from these refugee's ,i can even list the Samurai Families that came from Korea ,funny though most of the Samurai Clans in the Imjin War were of Korean Descent .Anyway for the longest time both country's spoke the same language ,The Famed Japanese Empress Jingu Kogo was said to have been born in East Puyo and was a Queen of Gaya before settling in Japan . There is a book titled "History Of The 5 Dynasties "i forget the author but it has a complete History of Khitan and claims them as a Chinese Dynasty but its written by a Chinese author and the Chinese also claim Goguryeo as being Chinese . Anyway to the point at hand around this time pretty much both Japan ,Koryeo ,Khitan ,all adopted Chinese Dress ,Language (at least the upper classes )and writing and even taught Chinese History over their own . How very cool this post started as pretty much a shallow topic for the guys about strong appealing women in the drama and moved to this great historical debate about linguistics . Please note modern day ethnicity =/= ancient nationality/ethnicity. During ancient time, keeping ethnicity/clan pure was more important than todays. Inter-racial marriages was unthinkable in past times. It doesn't matter few Khitan clans became Chinese, Korean, Mongolian and Kazakh/Uighurs etc.. their custom and culture quickly died or disappeared. You won't find Khitan language, costumes, culture and people in any country anymore. Claiming some dead tribes as Chinese or what ever is just wrong and very foolish and looking very desperate to steal someone's lineage which is nothing do with. What matter is who carried on the legacy/lineage. Chinese scholars are well-known for distorting Chinese history to make all East Asian comes from Chinese, therefore they have even claimed most of ancient Korean, Mongolian, Turkic, and Tungus (Jurchen/Manchu) kingdoms and chiefdoms. Please note Han Chinese is people originated from Yellow river, nothing do with these Korean, Mongolian, Turkic, and Tungusic tribes. This is much same for Tibetan and Uyghur in China, Han Chinese have no blood relation with Tibetan and Uyghur. Irony is, only survived Mongolian, Korean and Japanese have Tibetan, Siberian, and Tungus connection. But no han Chinese have connection. Good indication is mt-DNA of Korean and Japanese show existence of Tibetan and Siberian genes. In terms of y-DNA analysis, both Manchu and Japanese male DNA have connection with Korean male y-DNA. This also showup in linguistic connection as well. Japanese people are again, very modern people. Long ago, they were different people. Japanese natives were Ainus and Ryukyus, then they were invaded by these people from Korean peninsula 2000 years ago. It is believed to be Kyeonsang namdo people of South Korea is most closest to Kyushu Japanese in terms of genetics and linguistic accent. Thus showing the direct connection between ancient Shilla-Kaya connection with Hondo Japanese.
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Post by TheBo on Sept 17, 2009 11:20:13 GMT -5
...Ajk, although I admit the notorious romanization issue in Korean, basically that's not a problem of romanization, but a problem of different pronouncing ways of Chinese characters by Koreans and Chinese. ... As this example demonstartes, Korean way of pronouncing Chinese character is generally considered to reflect more ancient Chinese pronunciations than contemporary Chinese; ever since Chinese characters began to be used in Korea about 2,000 years ago, the ancient pronunciations stuck in Korean unlike those in Chinese. candylover! That is all so very interesting, and it helps make sense of the differences. Thank you so much! Bo
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Post by jojo on Sept 18, 2009 6:46:36 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for their contributions. As a novice to Korean and NE Asian history, I really appreciate it.
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Post by tinkerbell on Sept 19, 2009 20:01:29 GMT -5
How about the pronunciation of the words Khitan or Liao? It sounds like I'm hearing 'kor-an' for Khitan (same as in DJY). I have no idea where the r sound is coming from. Can't figure out Liao at all. Anyone have any comments? I believe Liao would sound like Lee-ow (in Chinese). The letter "i" has a long "e" sound and "ao" sounds like ow (as in cow). The Empress Dowager Xiao would sound like She-ow. "X" has a sound like sh. Now it could be said completely different in Korean as Candylover stated. Also the subtitles don't always read what the characters actually said. Many times there is one sentence in the subtitles and you hear them say about three. They use the same word for bastard and wretch, the same word for Queen, Princess and Lady, and the same word for Admiral, General, Commander and sir according to the subtitles. Those are just a few examples. We don't know if they're even saying "the Khitans". They could be calling them barbarians. Another example, Hyangbi calls Gang Jo "orabeoni" (older brother said by a female, doesn't necessarily have to be a brother), yet the subs say his name. Hwangbo Seol called her sister "unni" (older sister said by a female) yet the subs said Hunae. They do it all the time. They want you to get to know the names of the characters.
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Post by Ducky on Sept 20, 2009 2:07:13 GMT -5
Another example, Hyangbi calls Gang Jo "orabeoni" (older brother said by a female, doesn't necessarily have to be a brother), yet the subs say his name. That's why I can't watch with the volume muted...I need to hear what they are really saying... In "Kingdom of the Winds", Princess Yawn always called Dojin "Oreo Bunny", but she called Muhyul by name or rank... But on screen, it was always shown as their name... Even Koreans can't decide how to type Korean names in English... From IE... Fan-sub: Doyun----- KBS-sub: Dokyun... Fan-sub:Jeimei ==== KBS-sub:Hyeolmae Oh Yeah... I voted for Sailla... She cleans up nice...
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Post by ajk on Sept 21, 2009 12:03:38 GMT -5
Awesome post, candylover--I even printed it out so I could stare at it on paper for a while and properly get it through my tiny mind. Very interesting explanation about the evolution of the two different pronunciations. Can't thank you enough for taking the time to share it with us.
Now at the risk of annoying you, which is the last thing I want to do...there's still something I'm not getting here. I understand about the differences in Chinese and Korean pronunciations of the same Chinese characters. What I don't understand is how the Chinese pronunciations are getting into the KBS subtitles in the first place. I mean, when the scripts for these series are prepared, they're presumably printed completely in contemporary Hangul and without any Chinese characters, so they'd have the Korean pronunciations. And the actors, being contemporary Koreans, are going to pronounce the names as contemporary Koreans do. So for the subtitles to be giving us Chinese pronunciations, I can't figure out where they'd be coming from, since they'd be prepared either by reading the written scripts or by listening to the finished episodes. You see what I'm saying?
I'm wondering if the people doing the subtitles are given discretion to "substitute in" the foreign pronunciations for non-Korean names. Maybe there's a style manual or guideline system they use for this sort of thing? The reason it occurred to me is your reference to Yi Soon-Shin. When his series aired, we ALWAYS got "Yi" in the subtitles--never once was there a "Lee" or "Li," even though his name in Chinese characters could have ended up "Lee" or "Li" like the name "Li Wen" did. If that's the reason, I wish they'd stop doing it because it's just confusing us.
Anyway, thanks again, candylover.
P.S. And thanks to everybody else for their info too.
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Post by MTR on Sept 21, 2009 15:24:32 GMT -5
LEE CHAE YOUNG is the actress who plays Sai-La , She is the younger sister of actress Seo Seung Ag who i have no clue about , Anyway this is her biggest role to date and like many hope to see more of her . She was in the Horror Film "Truck "which is actually a great film way better than usual slasher fare in so much as its actually smart .
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Post by consoleman on Sept 22, 2009 3:44:36 GMT -5
^ She's host lady at Golden Bell TV show. Used to be model.
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Post by Candylover on Sept 23, 2009 15:21:43 GMT -5
Ajk, thanks for your intriguing comments.
As you said, Chinese pronunciations cannot be inferred from the Korean pronunciations written in Hangul in the scripts. So the people doing the subtitles must have looked up some kind of dictionaries or history books to know how all the Chinese names are written in Chinese characters - Korean history books or who is who dictionaries of history provide corresponding Chinese characters as well as Korean pronunciations of Chinese names. Once the Chinese characters are known, the subtitles people can look up a Chinese-character wordbook to get the Chinese pronunciation corresponding to each character - a Chinese-character wordbook is a list of Chinese characters with their Chinese pronunciations sorted on the order of Korean pronunciations. That's how the Chinese pronunciations are getting into the KBS subtitles.
Otherwise the KBS script itself may have provided the Chinese characters along with Korean pronunciations - in Korea, when Chinese characters are required along with Korean pronunciations they are usually parenthesized just after the Korean pronunciations written in Hangul: like À̹®(ì°Ùþ) for Li Wen, À̼ø½Å(ì°âïãí) for Yi Soon-Shin. The reason it occurred to me is the existence of fictional Chinese names such as Hong Pei, the right-hand man of Xue Ren-Gui. If the scripts haven't provided the Chinese characters for the fictional Chinese names, the people doing subtitles would have had to create them on their own.
Yes, it's confusing - The Chinese names you listen to and you read in the subtitles are different. But the Chinese pronunciations rather than Korean pronunciations in the subtitles are sometimes very useful. Let's suppose that we would like to know more about Xue Ren-Gui. Then what we usually need is rather Xue Rengui, the Chinese pronunciation, than Seol In-Gui, the Korean pronunciations: you could compare what google.com returns for Xue Ren-Gui with what it does for Seol In-Gui.
The style manual or guideline system, you mentioned, which decide on 'Yi' or 'Lee' exists. According to it, as long as the Chinese character 'ì°' refers to a surname, 'Yi' is the standard romanization in South Korea although 'Lee' is granted; but in North Korea 'Lee' is the standard.
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Post by TheBo on Sept 23, 2009 15:37:58 GMT -5
.... Also the subtitles don't always read what the characters actually said. Many times there is one sentence in the subtitles and you hear them say about three. They use the same word for bastard and wretch, the same word for Queen, Princess and Lady, and the same word for Admiral, General, Commander and sir according to the subtitles. Those are just a few examples. We don't know if they're even saying "the Khitans". They could be calling them barbarians. Another example, Hyangbi calls Gang Jo "orabeoni" (older brother said by a female, doesn't necessarily have to be a brother), yet the subs say his name. Hwangbo Seol called her sister "unni" (older sister said by a female) yet the subs said Hunae. They do it all the time. They want you to get to know the names of the characters. I don't know if you ever saw Bobby Lee's parody of Korean TV shows (for MAD TV--they're all over the You-Toob) but that's one source of the joke. You know, the character gestures violently, spewing line after line of emotional dialogue for minutes at a time, expressions of horror crossing every face, and the subtitle says, "You are so wrong, Young Brother!" Hah! When I watch a Korean show, I am always disappointed that they use people's names constantly, unlike what the characters (and actual Koreans) would do or are doing. I know they are trying to reinforce the names, but also, there is another aspect to this. It is not common in western society to refer to relatives or friends by titles (aunt, older brother, president) rather than their name. I think the current philosophy of Korean translation is that we're too dumb to "get it." I don't know how else to put it, I know that sounds harsh. This seems to have happened over the last few years; I never saw it when I first started watching, and it was one of the things I found intriguing (that personal names are less used). Whenever I see a show now where the translator tells me once or twice that a character is calling his friend "older sister" and then just uses the Korean term Nuna from that time forward (is Nuna the right one for boys to use? I forget), I get a warm feeling inside and enjoy the show much more. Yeah, I'm simple. Who didn't know. Bo PS - Ergh. I see I'm really behind times on this discussion. Sorry.
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Post by Candylover on Sept 23, 2009 16:23:41 GMT -5
I think the current philosophy of Korean translation is that we're too dumb to "get it." I don't know how else to put it, I know that sounds harsh. This seems to have happened over the last few years; I never saw it when I first started watching, and it was one of the things I found intriguing (that personal names are less used). Whenever I see a show now where the translator tells me once or twice that a character is calling his friend "older sister" and then just uses the Korean term Nuna from that time forward (is Nuna the right one for boys to use? I forget), I get a warm feeling inside and enjoy the show much more. I agree with you. The people doing subtitles need not be too fastidious about the cultural differences. When Koreans, myself included, visit their friend's houses, they behave as if they were a member of the friend's family: they call their friend's father "father", their friend's mother "mother" and their friend's older sister "nunah" or "unni." Of course this gives us warm feeling inside, and I love it; when my friend calls my mother "mother", I feel like he is my brother. Even on the street, a middle-aged male is usually called uncle and older male is called grandfather by unknown people. Likewise women are called aunt or grandmother. This will definitely confuse American people, but I'd like to say to the translators, "Don't be too kind about cultural differences, Let them realize the differences by themselves."
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