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Post by tinkerbell on Feb 11, 2008 16:49:33 GMT -5
I noticed the advertisement (the one with the crosses) the last time I was on this thread. It's because of the subject being discussed. Key words are picked up from the text and the ads correspond to the subject being posted about. Earlier ginnycat said there was an ad for "Monk" which probably changed the ad because soapygrams used the word "monastery". At 4:50 Eastern time, the ad has changed to the new TV show "Knight Rider" because TV show was mentioned.
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Post by soapygrams on Feb 11, 2008 20:02:25 GMT -5
7Stars wrote: ". . . Having said that, I am going to resist the prevailing tendency to view the modern west as so perfectly sanctimonious and civilized in comparison with the far east. Many of the atrocities we hear about in other parts of the world also take place and are hidden or rationalized away in our so-called civilized society." :(You are so right - one of these hidden atrocities comes to mind - the infecting of an entire American Indian tribe with smallpox by giving pox infected blankets to the tribe - then watching them die. Of course it was only done because the wayszituses [phonetic sp/Lakota word] wanted the land without having to fight for it - but hey, that meant progress, right? Our government was/is no slacker when it comes to being ruthless in order to advance its own agenda.
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Post by seven stars on Feb 12, 2008 8:30:54 GMT -5
Wow,
I was not aware of that piece of history soapygrams. Nevertheless it serves as a perfect example of the earlier point doesn't it.
Can you give us more details on what happened to that tribe?
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Post by TheBo on Feb 12, 2008 15:17:41 GMT -5
I wonder if you have some documentation, soapygrams. I've been looking around the internet because it was my understanding that the smallpox blanket story is a myth, generated by the fact that large numbers of First Americans (particularly Lakota) were killed by smallpox. I found a number of online discussions: 'disturbing the comfortable' blogstrong, emotional arguments about the issue of genocide and the blanket legend in particular, some strong language H-West discussion from 1995a more scholarly approach BTW, this blog is sponsored by H-net: "An international consortium of scholars and teachers, H-Net creates and coordinates Internet networks with the common objective of advancing teaching and research in the arts, humanities, and social sciences. H-Net is committed to pioneering the use of new communication technology to facilitate the free exchange of academic ideas and scholarly resources." Seems like a good resource. In this discussion, Elizabeth M. Nuxoll has a post that seems to confirm the theory that it was done deliberately via infected blankets. Journal of American Folkloretantalizing abstract to article I can't access! My theory is that the First Americans were so oppressed by our troops and government that they had to look on the disease as deliberately spread. Also, that people actually did come up with the idea of spreading smallpox or measles with infected blankets. However, even if a few individuals did attempt this, I don't believe it was a large-scale government program. Why should they? All they had to do was send a few sick individuals into a First Nation village and the lack of natural immunity would do the rest. (If they did indeed realize that infected blankets could spread disease, they must have known that infected people could do it better.) I'm not saying our government has not been complicit in genocidal activities, far from it. I'm just saying that the smallpox blanket may not be actual history, but rather, an erroneous explanation of how historical events took place. Bo
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Post by tinkerbell on Feb 12, 2008 16:50:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't put it past some people to resort to such tactics. It is a fact that American Indians were exposed to European diseases, whether intentional or just through trading of goods and coming in contact with the Europeans. They came here and took the land away from the Indians. Yes, there was some land that was bought, but most was acquired by killing or driving the Natives off their land. Some in the U.S. Army sent troops to kill the people and those who surrendered were marched to reservations sometimes extreme distances which resulted in many more deaths.
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Post by TheBo on Feb 12, 2008 17:24:30 GMT -5
I agree with what you say, Tinkerbell, but that does not prove that the American government distributed blankets infected with smallpox virus to the native people they were trying to conquer. I mean, we often accept certain stories as fact without ever questioning their veracity, just because it agrees with our view of the matter. That does not make them true. It becomes more uncomfortable when we are on the receiving end of such untruths, but we do not often think of it that way. Also, when the truth does come out, it casts doubt on the whole question of whether the big picture is accurate, which can slow down efforts to right things.
Yes, the Indians were felled in large numbers by "white" diseases, and yes, they were oppressed and stolen from and murdered and hounded and lied to and cheated, and they are still suffering from those wrongs and others done to them from more benevolent motives. However, there does not appear to be (or, I cannot find and no one seems to have) any proof that the American government distributed smallpox infected blankets to the Lakota, Navaho or any other First Nation.
Bo
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Post by proud mexican on Feb 12, 2008 20:09:21 GMT -5
I agree with what you say, Tinkerbell, but that does not prove that the American government distributed blankets infected with smallpox virus to the native people they were trying to conquer. I mean, we often accept certain stories as fact without ever questioning their veracity, just because it agrees with our view of the matter. That does not make them true. It becomes more uncomfortable when we are on the receiving end of such untruths, but we do not often think of it that way. Also, when the truth does come out, it casts doubt on the whole question of whether the big picture is accurate, which can slow down efforts to right things. Yes, the Indians were felled in large numbers by "white" diseases, and yes, they were oppressed and stolen from and murdered and hounded and lied to and cheated, and they are still suffering from those wrongs and others done to them from more benevolent motives. However, there does not appear to be (or, I cannot find and no one seems to have) any proof that the American government distributed smallpox infected blankets to the Lakota, Navaho or any other First Nation. Bo You are a person who is ignorant of historical facts. White americans have exploited my peoples for generations. Why am I not surprised that a white american would change now? :/
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Post by tinkerbell on Feb 12, 2008 20:35:50 GMT -5
You are a person who is ignorant of historical facts. White americans have exploited my peoples for generations. Why am I not surprised that a white american would change now? :/ Please don't be so quick to judge. We were talking about American Indians and a particular incident that may or may not have happened. You are assuming Bo is "a white American" when you have no idea. Thank you.
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Post by TheBo on Feb 13, 2008 11:08:55 GMT -5
Well, whether I am white or American or whatever, I don't know why proud mexican should object to my views on First ("native") Americans. I said they were exploited, murdered, cheated, etc., on and on...could you please tell me what in there makes you think I have not "changed" or am ignorant of historical facts?
Bo
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Post by kathleen34 on Feb 13, 2008 12:26:26 GMT -5
For as long as I've been a part of this board, Bo has always posted with great care not to incite. She checks her facts before she posts and expresses her thoughts very carefully... as she did on this subject.
Elizabeth M. Nuxoll has a post that seems to confirm the theory that it was done deliberately via infected blankets. The important word here is SEEMS.
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Post by tinkerbell on Feb 13, 2008 13:14:30 GMT -5
I asked my dad and he knew all about the story. Apparently this incident did happen, but it was the British who were guilty of this during The French and Indian War.
Smallpox blankets
Despite his fame, Jeffrey Amherst's name became tarnished by stories of smallpox-infected blankets used as germ warfare against American Indians. These stories are reported, for example, in Carl Waldman's Atlas of the North American Indian [NY: Facts on File, 1985]. Waldman writes, in reference to a siege of Fort Pitt (Pittsburgh) by Chief Pontiac's forces during the summer of 1763:
... Captain Simeon Ecuyer had bought time by sending smallpox-infected blankets and handkerchiefs to the Indians surrounding the fort -- an early example of biological warfare -- which started an epidemic among them. Amherst himself had encouraged this tactic in a letter to Ecuyer. [p. 108]
Some people have doubted these stories; other people, believing the stories, nevertheless assert that the infected blankets were not intentionally distributed to the Indians, or that Lord Jeff himself is not to blame for the germ warfare tactic.
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Post by TheBo on Feb 13, 2008 13:42:23 GMT -5
Wow, tinkerbell, thanks! That's an interesting twist on the story (British instead of American).
Just out of curiosity, why did you ask your Dad? Is he a historian or just one of those guys who loves history books?
Bo
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Post by tinkerbell on Feb 13, 2008 13:56:50 GMT -5
My dad is a wealth of information whether it's history or the world today. He's always reading.
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Post by Danielson on Feb 13, 2008 23:15:23 GMT -5
Lord Jeff may or may not have sperad small pox. But here is some evidence that the US government did spread smallpox to wipe out the Indians Conclusion All in all, the letters provided here remove all doubt about the validity of the stories about Lord Jeff and germ warfare. The General's own letters sustain the stories. As to whether the plans actually were carried out, Parkman has this to say: ... in the following spring, Gershom Hicks, who had been among the Indians, reported at Fort Pitt that the small-pox had been raging for some time among them.... An additional source of information on the matter is the Journal of William Trent, commander of the local militia of the townspeople of Pittsburgh during Pontiac's seige of the fort. This Journal has been described as "... the most detailed contemporary account of the anxious days and nights in the beleaguered stronghold." [Pen Pictures of Early Western Pennsylvania, John W. Harpster, ed. (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1938).] Trent's entry for May 24, 1763, includes the following statement: we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. Trent's Journal confirms that smallpox had broken out in Fort Pitt prior to the correspondence between Bouquet and Amherst, thus making their plans feasible. It also indicates that intentional infection of the Indians with smallpox had been already approved by at least Captain Ecuyer at the fort, who some commentators have suggested was in direct correspondence with General Amherst on this tactic You can view more info and read actual historical scanned letters. www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html[Mod note: fixed link. You had an extra space in there, Danielson. =Bo]
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Post by Ducky on Feb 14, 2008 3:52:14 GMT -5
I asked my dad and he knew all about the story. Apparently this incident did happen, but it was the British who were guilty of this during The French and Indian War. Yes, it was the BRITISH who gave out the blankets...And it was only 2... Lord Jeff may or may not have sperad small pox. But here is some evidence that the US government did spread smallpox to wipe out the Indians... Interesting that you blame the US government for spreading smallpox to the indians...The whole "Blanket" affair that you talk about happened in the year 1763,... 13 years before the US government even existed... North America was still a collection of European colonies at that time... Most experts on the subject credit the rampant spread of smallpox through the tribes as a result of cannibalism, scalping, and theft of household items (bedding, clothing, etc)...
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