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Post by skinz on Jun 2, 2007 22:31:46 GMT -5
I'm completely lost of the era of the show. Any help would be gladly appreciated. Thanks. Where's Florel when you need her?
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Post by CaptainVideo on Jun 3, 2007 0:48:55 GMT -5
According to The New York Times Guide To Essential Knowledge, ".....the state of Silla, in 562, put an end to Japanese attempts to carve out colonial encalves on the peninsula, and then, with Tang support, turned its attention to deating its rivals Paekche (Bekjae) and Koguryo (Gogoryeo). This process was completed by 670, and Silla grew prosperous with Tang support and cultural influence."
There's a bit more, but that information could be taken as a spoiler. I hope that answered your question.
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Post by cheonson on Jun 3, 2007 10:58:20 GMT -5
According to The New York Times Guide To Essential Knowledge, ".....the state of Silla, in 562, put an end to Japanese attempts to carve out colonial encalves on the peninsula, and then, with Tang support, turned its attention to deating its rivals Paekche (Bekjae) and Koguryo (Gogoryeo). This process was completed by 670, and Silla grew prosperous with Tang support and cultural influence."There's a bit more, but that information could be taken as a spoiler. I hope that answered your question. Do you have whole article of this? Does the articl mean that Japan was going to occupy Shilla at that time? This is another historical distortion. I have never heard this kind rediculous thing. Japan is a nation built by BaekJe royal family after the fall of BaekJe and then how could the people on the land try to attack Shilla. The first dynasty on the islands was built by BaekJe but there 3 dynasties peoples also moved to the lands and they together cultivated the islands. After the fall of Balhae many people move to the islands too ; the leader of Japan is known to be descendant of Balhae - his father confessed the family's origin. They still keep traditions of the 3 kingdoms : They use Shilla language (todays shilla dialect) when have a ritual to call heavenly God, and the King still keep BaekJe tradition and Samurai derived from SSaurabi iof Baekje. And there many still keep Goguryeo family records. According to what I saw on TV in one HANGUL day, todays Japanese language is Goguryeo language. Before IMJIN war, the islands were not known well to Josun. I just remember one historical thing that I saw on TV documentary that, just after the fall of BaekJe, BaekJe descendants who moved to the islands sent naval force to BaekJe army which still remained in KOrea to regain its territory from Shilla but they failed. I think the Article was mentioning this historical truth.
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Post by CaptainVideo on Jun 3, 2007 11:59:05 GMT -5
If you're following the show, don't read this next part. SPOILER ALERT This information is derived from, The New York Time Guide To Essential Knowledge, Copyright 2004 by The New York Times ISBN 0-312-31367-5
Japan and Korea
In Korean, the state of Silla in 562 purt an end to Japanese attempts to carve out colonial enclaves on the peninsula, and then, with Tang support, turned its attention to defeating its rivals Paekche and Koguryo. This process was completed by 670, and Silla grew prosperous with Tand support and cultural influence. But Silla in turn was defeated in 935 by the small western state of Koryo, which established a dynasty ruling all of Korea until 1392. Relatively isolated from Song influence by the intervening states of Liao, and later Jin, the Koryo state became cultrually more independent of China.
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Post by skinz on Jun 5, 2007 10:37:32 GMT -5
Thanks captain. So Silla and Bekjae make appearances also? are do they just reference them in the narrative part?
So far I'm highly intrigues of this era because I am completely clueless on it.
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Post by JP Paulus on Jun 5, 2007 11:09:02 GMT -5
Shilla has a significant role in the middle of the series (but their earlier real-life influence during the beginning of the series seems like it was ignored/downplayed)
Bekjae has a small role, which you will see through Mimosa later on down the road (~ episode 50)
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Post by consoleman on Jun 5, 2007 20:23:29 GMT -5
Actually The New York Times Guide To Essential Knowledge is incorrect.
The relationship between Korean Kingdoms and Japan is deeper than most scholars & historian research.
The Wa ppl (according to Chinese source, Wa tribes originally settled in Japan, and were migrated from Sth manchuria; via inland during Ice age and again via Sea, most likely via Korean straight).
Japanese ppl who settled during Ice age period are known as Jomon culture in korea aka Joelmun or Chulmun culture. The pottery found during this era as identical between Korea & Japan thus both tribes are highly likely belongs to same ancestor root.
Then suddenly all the tribes were in war each other, possibly due to inavialbility of lands, so tribal factions fought each other. The sucessful factions were Korean tribes Ma-Han federation, Byon-han feds, Jin-Han feds and so on. So tha Wa faction completely lost the land in Korea and force to take Japan as base. We called this Mumun or Yanoi culture (japan), this is period were Japan suddenly became iron age. Thus japan never really had Bronze era. This is funny part, Coz, Japan actually distorted this period heavily during Japanese occupation of Korea during 1900s, by destroying most of Korean source. And thus modern Korean historians a& scholars are now have no option to adopt Chinese classics & one Samguk Yusa by Kim Busik (only history book left over by Japanese and it's highly likely have been distorted to suit their tricks).
From there Wa continuosly try to occupy Korean penisula, and later found ally in Korea called Mimana or Kaya (Small tribal faction who won the right to occupied little portion of land in very sth edge of Korean penisula). However, Silla Kingdom who established themselve strong military base and invaded kaya, so Kaya surrendered to Silla, thus Wa faction lost its contact in Korea again.
So Wa were forced to join forces with BaikJe Kingdom who ere originally from Buyeo descents and invaded Ma-han tribal feds.
When Baikje was in trouble with both Silla & Koguryeo, they've established second major military base in Japan thus major flood of military techs, worriors and schools were establisged during this period. Actually middle Japan heavily owe to Baikje and nearly 1/3 Japan's population are descents from Baikje.
So war go on for several hundreds years (small to major wars). When Baikje finally accepted ally with Koguryeo, Silla had no option, so they allied with Tang. So basically speaking, Both Koguryeo, Baikje & Japan were in ally against to Tang & Silla.
Interestingly, many Silla's tribal factions were Xunbi, Xanbei origin and so are Tang's emperor (Lee Sinmin) him self (his mother were from Xanbei tribe, so he was half Dong-yi faction).
So Silla used their orgins to favor Tang and accepted Tang culture, thus Silla is heavily influenced by Tang. But later Tang-Silla relation went sour due to war on territoral ground.
When both Baikje & Koguryeo were tossed by Silla-Tang forces, many Baikje ppl fleed to Japan as refuges. The Koguryeo's ppl went separate ways by joining new Balhae dynasty (founded by DJY - Koguryeo's general's son), and many Kogureyo ppl were forced to become Tang & Silla's citizens. Thus this made pave to another dynasty called Koryeo (founded by Wangon).
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Post by Candylover on Jun 5, 2007 21:55:44 GMT -5
Interestingly, many Silla's tribal factions were Xunbi, Xanbei origin and so are Tang's emperor (Lee Sinmin) him self (his mother were from Xanbei tribe, so he was half Dong-yi faction). Consoleman, thanks for your post. But I think your opinion about Silla's tribal factions is arguable. As far as I know, it is only a minor theory which is not widely accepted or almost ignored by professional historians, isn't it? It's OK that you introduce one of the theories, but if you don't mind my saying so, it should have been done more carefully.
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Post by cheonson on Jun 6, 2007 11:14:02 GMT -5
[quote author=consoleman board=daejoyoung
Interestingly, many Silla's tribal factions were Xunbi, Xanbei origin and so are Tang's emperor (Lee Sinmin) him self (his mother were from Xanbei tribe, so he was half Dong-yi faction).
So Silla used their orgins to favor Tang and accepted Tang culture, thus Silla is heavily influenced by Tang. But later Tang-Silla relation went sour due to war on territoral ground. .[/quote]
========================== It is very well known Tang is a dynasty of Xiabei (Dongyi descendant) and its cultures came from Dongyi, but I didn't expect that the truth that the two's blood tie made them to unite to conquer BaekJe and Goguryeo. Even though the three dynasties, Goguryeo, Baekje and Shilla, finally came from one root (Dongyi), Shilla must have had the closer tie with Tang than with the two brother nations which were built by Jumong's sons, because of each blood tie.
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Post by consoleman on Jun 6, 2007 20:51:02 GMT -5
Silla faction is far from close to other 2 major Korean factions (Koguri & Kudara - an old name for Baekje - another sinized name).
It well known that many Silla factions are Xanbei origin or Hun origin, even Koguri faction tried to destroy them. Anyway, Silla faction did imigrated from Sth manchuria. If you read SamgukYusa by Kim Busik then you will understand this part.
Coz, Xanbei tribes are now part of Chinese history, many Korean historian & scholars left Xanbei faction from Korean history. So that Silla look like more independent state.
Tang court did not trusted any Korean factions, but just Coz Tang's royalty were Xanbei origin, they widely accepted Silla ppl as one of them.
Strickly speaking even Tang empire were not 100% Chinese, nearly all top generals or worrior class members were non-han chinese origin, this is why Tang court allow many non han chinese to join their military rank.
More than half of Tang's military ranks are from Xanbei, Khitan, Juan-Juan mongols, Jurchen (aka Mohe or malgal), Koguri, Kudara (baikje), Ughur and Turkic origins (Ughurs & Turks are non DongYi factions - central asian origin).
Not too mention Lee ShinMin's brother in law (Zhang-Son-Muggi) were DongYi origin, and nearly all of his generals were non-han chinese. Even Empress Mu (Empress Wu) favor non-han chinese ppl under her Tang court.
And this is why China is trying hard to make all of Korean history as theirs. Coz, their han chinese didn't accomplished much compare it to Donyi factions.
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Post by CaptainVideo on Jun 6, 2007 22:40:58 GMT -5
Hey Skinz, now that I typed that article from the book, you know as much as I do about the period; I have only become aware of any of this through the show. Consoleman, I just happened to notice that along with having just joined the group yesterday, you were born TODAY: [glow=red,2,300]Saeng-il ch'uk'a hamnida![/glow] As you may or may not know, most of us here have little or no knowledge of Korean history except for what is shown on the dramas which have brought us all here, so please be gentle if we get it wrong.
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Post by cheonson on Jun 7, 2007 5:47:57 GMT -5
=======================================[/color]
I don't think that Shilla destoried the two brother dynasties just for the reason that the other two dynasties are different tribes from themselves in those days. I think all three must have had a passion to rule the whole land of Dongyi claiming that each of themselves is authentic descendant of Dongyi and it was half completed by Shilla being taken away the large part of ancient Korean territory.
======================================= ======================================= I think I have heard that not only the military grop but also the ruling part and most population of the dynasty were from Xiabei. ==================================== ========================================
In the drama I see that Tang Queen is trying to hire more non-Tang(Xiabei) general to protect herself and to exercise power herself. Then the drama kind of distorting the historical truth. - for Tang which is Dynasty of the northeast origin, it is very natural to hire generals from NorthEast tribes to keep the land.
====================================== ======================================
I 100% agree with you. Actually there (as far as I consider) not many things to be something Chinese(Han-Chinese) exist today. for the last 2000 years so many ethnics (such as Xiabei, Mongol and Manchu) repeatedly swept the land and I don't think it would be possible, under that hard situation, to keep unique culture or history to be called Han-Chinese (if the pure blood still exists) own.
Do you know why the language of todays Chinese call Mandarin? - I think you must. Mandarin means "a great man of Manchu" but today, the term has turned into the term to call Han-chinese language. According to my professor (not history professor but very interested in Manchu language and has friends who search Manchu languae) under the rule of Manchu, Han-Chinese language has almost changed into Manchu language(even though the words orders are different from Manchu language).
Today I learned one thing about the dress which is known to be Han-Chinese costumn. Chingpao (I don't know the exact spell anyway) is to refer to traditional costumn of Manchu - Ching means Ching(Manchurian sound) dynasty and pao means a dress.
Now I think i have to admit that the two can be ones for modern Chinese but just think it is so fun that few Han-people seem to know about the origin of "Chingpao" and "Mandarin" and that they are proud of accepting them as theirs own without knowing anything.
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Post by Candylover on Jun 7, 2007 6:52:45 GMT -5
Hello, consoleman, and cheonson:
I don't really mean to be offensive to both of you, but to be frank with you, I don't understand what you're talking about. As far as I know - I'm a Korean adult born and educated in Korea like you (just my guess) - things like "Interestingly, many Silla's tribal factions were Xunbi, Xanbei origin and so are Tang's emperor" or "the two's blood tie made them to unite to conquer BaekJe and Goguryeo" are sheer nonsense. I mean they might be a kind of gossip that history buffs in Korea enjoy to talk about, but at least are not what serious historians are willing to tackle to. Why don't you introduce any serious books or articles by professional historians supporting what you have said above?
Although I appreciate your posts here on Korean history, I think you should have been more careful in delivering historical facts on this board since most people here have little or no knowledge of Korean history. You (or someone) might have personally caught something historically meaningful that professional historians had missed or ignored while reading historical documentation, but at least it should not have been presented to the non-Korean audience here as if it was an generally accepted historical fact, I think.
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Post by ginnycat5 on Jun 8, 2007 0:33:54 GMT -5
Here's a cool link, an animated map of Korean history from 100 CE or so. It progresses year by year, and you can watch the nations grow and ebb. I lost it when my computer crashed, and I'm really glad it's still up. Thanks for the reminder on this thread. It must be too huge to copy, tho. Hope they stay in business. www.ecai.org/Area/AreaTeamExamples/Korea/KoreaHistoryAnimation.html
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Post by cheonson on Jun 8, 2007 1:45:51 GMT -5
Hello, consoleman, and cheonson: I don't really mean to be offensive to both of you, but to be frank with you, I don't understand what you're talking about. As far as I know - I'm a Korean adult born and educated in Korea like you (just my guess) - things like "Interestingly, many Silla's tribal factions were Xunbi, Xanbei origin and so are Tang's emperor" or "the two's blood tie made them to unite to conquer BaekJe and Goguryeo" are sheer nonsense. I mean they might be a kind of gossip that history buffs in Korea enjoy to talk about, but at least are not what serious historians are willing to tackle to. Why don't you introduce any serious books or articles by professional historians supporting what you have said above? Hi, First I think i have to admit that I was not careful in saying that "Shilla had a closer tie with Tang in blood". Actually I am not sure whether the major population of Shilla was Xiabei but anyway Xiabei also drived from Dongyi and I just guessed that Shilla was a dynasty of Xiabei tribe as "consolemn" said above - not that I mean "consolemn" was wrong . I think that the important thing is that whatever the relationship between the two (xiabei and Shilla) were, they finally came from one root. Here I give you what I read Shin Chae Ho's(1880~1936) book, Josun Sanggosa(Ancient History of Josun(Korea)), ½ÅäȣÀÇ Á¶¼±»ó°í»ç, showing that Xiabei is alos one of Korean tribes. Here he claims that Korean ancient history should be rediscovered and rerecored as including histories of its seperated tribes, saying "...with the truths that Xiabei, the Huns, Mongol and YeoJin(old name of Manchu) all derived from us and that Japan which has been cradled by Korea has turned out to be our Enemy now" and saying it is our task (as descendants of Dangun Josun) to reveal the truth that Xiabei, Mongol, and Yeojin(Manchu) are all derived from Dangun Josun. Here is an exraction from the book, "Kim (dynasty/pre-Ching dynasty) was originally a provincial state in the northeast part of Baekdoo Mt., which "worshiped Koryeo being slaves of Koryeo" and "worshiped Koryeo as a monther" but suddenly Kim became more powerful than Korea(Josun then) and the mother-son relationship between the two turned out to be the brother relationship." Hope this would help you undersatnd what I said about the relationship between Xiabei and Shilla. The two dynasties (Tang of Xiabei and Shilla) must have been enemy each other at that time but this doesn't mean that they are alien from each other as you see among Koguryeo, BaekJe and Shilla. I think the important thing is that the truth is that the two derived from one root.
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