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Post by cheonson on Nov 13, 2006 19:21:59 GMT -5
That was a nice idea sticking to the historical facts, even language... So tell me, is Hangul a Hanja derivative? Since you said that Hangul was invented about 800 something years after Hanja, then doesn't that mean that Hangul was part-in-part created with both Japanese and Chinese characters? Confusion... Darn, I should try and google this if all else fails. Han Gul(Korean Characters)are nothig to do with Chinese or Japanese. early Han Gul modern Han Gul Chinese Japanese By the way, there is no any evidence that the ancient Asian script was invented by chinese. It was just characters for all ancient people in east Asia. I don't think it is proper to call the ancient scripts call Chinese scripts. Modern chinese script and Ancient script are different. China has distorted the original forms of characters for the reason they are too complex to learn. For the ancient scripts, each character has its own meaning and the composition of each single character create another words with another meanings. Therefore I think, when any of the single character lose its original form it loses its original meaning. China even has borrowed Roman phonetic signs to pronounce their modern characters.- on the other hand we koreans already has achieved all pronounciation of ancient characters ; we don't need to borrowd other language phonetic signs to pronounce our ancient scripts. What i want to say is that, at least for the old scripts we Korean ancient people have used, you shouldn't call them Chinese character. Once again, there is no any vaild evidence Ancient chinese invented the ancient scripts. Since we still don't know who invented the scripts the ancients scripts should be all east asians' heritage.
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Post by christinew on Nov 14, 2006 13:50:41 GMT -5
I have heard people say Korean(the writing system) is a lot easier to learn than either Chinese or Japanese. Is it really true? Is there any person here who tried to learn Korean and Chinese/Japanese?
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Post by Lucy on Nov 14, 2006 19:06:25 GMT -5
Christi, I haven't tried to learn Chinese or Japanese, but I can tell you that Hangeul is as easy as pie. It's not easy to learn to speak the language or understand it, but learning the alphabet can be done in a matter of a day or so if you're motivated. It's phonetic--each letter represents a sound--so with a little practice you could be reading Korean out loud (though not understanding it) almost right away.
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Post by christinew on Nov 14, 2006 20:14:43 GMT -5
Wow. thanks, lucy. I think I will start to learn Hangeul.
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 1:35:24 GMT -5
There are a few more theories about the origins of Hangeul. Some think that the shape of the script was derived from the ancient Garimto script. There was also a documentary maybe a year ago that I saw that talked about the newly discovered Gugyeol script, which is a system of writing prefixes and suffixes with a 'bone pen' by pressing it on the paper, without using ink. It was apparently discovered only in year 2000 from Buddhist sciptures, and it seems that not much research has been done yet. (I'm personally very much interested in this writing system, because apparently, this was discovered only in Japan so far and Korean discovery is a new one. In addition, eariest ones found in Japan are on Shilla Buddhist scriptures) Anyway, from the way the early Hangeul looked such as how the short strokes in modern Hangeul used to be dots in their original form, which does not suit very well to writing with brush, but with some kind of writing implement with hard tip. Also, the way each letter of Hangeul is written has a well-structured positioning within invisible boxes has been connected to Gugyeol as well because Gugyeols were written beside the main script, written in Hanja, in invisible boxes according to the meaning that the letter tried to represent. (like, for example, the accusative suffix would be situated to the upper right of Hanja and genitive suffix would be situated to the below of Hanja, etc)
And to answer christinew, if you can't learn Hangeul in a day, at most two days, than you should think something is wrong with your cognitive ability. If you're especially bright, you can even learn it in a few hours.
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 1:43:27 GMT -5
By the way, there is no any evidence that the ancient Asian script was invented by chinese. It was just characters for all ancient people in east Asia. I don't think it is proper to call the ancient scripts call Chinese scripts. Well, we do already know that the "Chinese writing" was invented by the ancient people of Dongyi. which is not ethnic Chinese. (as in Han Chinese) The matter here though, if whether the Dongyi people whould be considered as a part of Chinese peoples or as something else, such as ancestors to Korean. (Dongyi:東夷 means, from the Chinese perspective, the eastern barbarian) Yeah, it really is misleading to label everything with the blanket term 'Chinese.' So the Chinese want to claim that Dongyi is a part of Chinese peoples, for obvious reasons, even though their ancestors clearly saw them as 'the other.' rather than as 'their own.'
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Post by christinew on Nov 15, 2006 10:19:29 GMT -5
Before I saw Daejanggeum and somehow found this board I didn't know much about Korea, her people or her history. In fact, I had zilch interest in them. But since then I saw several K-dramas and movies and read a couple of books about Korea. Now I think Koreans and their splendid culture the best kept secret of the world.
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Post by BAE on Nov 15, 2006 11:20:14 GMT -5
By the way, there is no any evidence that the ancient Asian script was invented by chinese. It was just characters for all ancient people in east Asia. I don't think it is proper to call the ancient scripts call Chinese scripts. Well, we do already know that the "Chinese writing" was invented by the ancient people of Dongyi. which is not ethnic Chinese. (as in Han Chinese) The matter here though, is whether the Dongyi people would be considered as a part of Chinese peoples or as something else, such as ancestors to Korean. (Dongyi:東夷 means, from the Chinese perspective, the eastern barbarian) Yeah, it really is misleading to label everything with the blanket term 'Chinese.' So the Chinese want to claim that Dongyi is a part of Chinese peoples, for obvious reasons, even though their ancestors clearly saw them as 'the other.' rather than as 'their own.' So, these Dongyi-- "barbarian" lot (although, doesn't yi mean "corpse"?)-- are perhaps ancestors of the modern Korean or-- what is the implication here? If the ancestors of the Chinese thought the Dongyi to be "different" from themselves, then were they another race all together living in present-day Asia who mingled with Korean society to create an interracial society of Dangyi-Koreans, or what? What exactly does Dongyi symbolize? I've read that South Korean Scholars presume Dongyi to be the people of Manchuria. And in Chinese history books, Dongyi is a reference to the Ancient Korean as well as Japanese... So, basically, anyone who was to the east of then China could've been considered Dongyi, right?
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 12:13:50 GMT -5
Right. The Chinese seem to have referred Korean as well as Japanese as Dongyi (just as a note, Koreans and Japanese alike were originally wae/wa: èÞ, although, during the course of history, it came to refer only to Japan.) In fact, the people of Koguryo referred to Baekje and Shilla as Dongyi as well, although in modern perspective, Koguryo, Baekje and Shilla are considered the same ethnic group. But at least in the ancient use by the Chinese (i.e. Huaxia:ü¤ù¾ people) Dongyi refers to the people inhabiting present day Manchuria and Korea. That is, people who founded ancient Chosun. Their origin can be traced back to Xiajiadian culture (in Korean, Hagajeom) and ultimately to Hongshan culture. (in Korean, Hongsan) These cultures predate Huanghe (yellow river) culture. So, as we already know, the origin of so-called "Chinese civilization" is really these Dongyi people. Like how the historical/mythical character considered to be the forefather of the Chinese, Huangdi (yellow emperor), is of Dongyi decent, as well as the rest of the Sanhuangwudi. (The Three August Ones and Five Emperors) So these are clear facts. But what is potentially disputable is whether Dongyi itself should be considered Chinese or something else. You can see that this has a large implication, especially if you know what Sanhuangwudi represents in East Asian cultures. So, I'm not claiming anything here, but at least, I think we should be wary of labeling everything "Chinese" just like that. I mean, issue like this, I don't think is ever raised in the western academic circle, let alone in Korea or China. Only very few seem interested, despite the huge implications. Or maybe they are intentionally downplaying it precisely because of that. Oh, and according to my Chinese dictionary, Yi also means flat, deterioration, kill, joy, water goblin and the name of one of the trigrams.
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 12:18:57 GMT -5
So, to add a bit to this. This is what Northeast Asian Project is about. Claiming that Koguryo, and by extension, Buyo and Ancient Chosun are all a part of Chinese heritage, not Korean, with the implication discussed above. If this becomes sucessful, I'm sure the Chinese will start openly admitting and advertising the Dongyi heritage and their researches in the Northeastern territory. Yeah, so this is, I think, a huge poitical warfare that goes on in the behind.
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 12:26:29 GMT -5
Sorry for triple posting. So, why don't you take look at this wiki article? I think the content of the article is disputable, but it's such an obscure subject that it doesn't receive a lot of attention. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DongyiWhatever your understaing of the term and its implication, I think the one thing that should be clear is the inappropriateness of calling Dongyi people a Chinese. Especially when there are peoples outside of China who are closer descendants (if not direct) of this ethnic group.
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Post by sdjumble on Nov 15, 2006 12:31:57 GMT -5
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Post by BAE on Nov 15, 2006 13:48:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Sorry I brought the thread to a tangent from the actual show.
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Post by Lucy on Nov 17, 2006 19:02:23 GMT -5
Wow. thanks, lucy. I think I will start to learn Hangeul. Just to let you know, I think I overstated the simplicity. But supposedly you can learn Hangeul in one night. It doesn't really work out that way. But I was trying to draw a sharp contrast between Chinese and Japanese on the one hand and Korean on the other. Bonne chance!
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Post by Candylover on Nov 17, 2006 19:38:57 GMT -5
It's true that Korean language itself is not easy to learn, but hangul, the Korean alphabet, is very easy to learn. You should have seen even 4 or 5 years old Korean children read newpapers aloud although they don't fully understand the meaning! Next link is a short video clip, but would be very useful for understanding the principles of hangul. www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4zrRZsN8Yk
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