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Post by Maalii on Oct 8, 2004 11:39:32 GMT -5
While reading through RTK for the umpteenth time, it dawned on me that there is another RTK-AOW parallel in addition to the three sworn brothers, the Zhang Fei-Che Won and Choi Choonghon-Cao Cao similarities, and others we've talked about on this board. Another parallel is in the cliffhanger endings to the episodes. RTK has a very similar structure with its chapters, as many of the chapters end with a major character in a tight spot..."Did Chen Gong kill Cao Cao? Read the next chapter" And, like RTK, the cliff hanger ending is very quickly resolved at the beginning of the next episode/chapter.
AOW is the first Korean historical drama I've watched, so I'm curious. Did the other series have the cliffhanger episode endings like AOW? I've watched Japanese historical dramas for years and they don't tend to end episodes like that (too bad).
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Post by ID on Oct 8, 2004 13:57:45 GMT -5
yep. they did. especially in emperor wang guhn. which has tons and tons of ROTK refernces. {three characters are compared to zhuge liang/kongming by other people. wang guhn is compared to liu bei. and one of the dudes is compared to zhao yun. even kyun geum-kang swallowing his eye after it was shot by an arrow, was without any doubt a reference to xiahou dun swallowing his own eye. he even said the exact same lines: "how can i get rid of this precious gift from my parents?"
on a side note, since i can't PM you {you aren't registered} have you read "outlaws of the marsh"? other than ROTK, that is the greatest book i have ever read. {aside form ROTK, of course} it takes place in the 12th century {1127 to be exact. it shows the end of the song dynasty, and the coming of Jin}. it is a tale passed down for hundreds of years, and is credited to Shi Nai'an. However, it was edited by Lou Guanzhong in the 16th century. it is an account of the life of Song Jiang, {though it is 75 % fiction}. It tells of a band of bandits {no pun intended}who all have there own reasons to join. and this amazing book tells you the individual tales of these 102 people, before they all join eachother. it never gets boring, and the action is the best i have read in any book {besides ROTK}. i'm telling, this is amazing. if you decide to give it a try, you should by the paper back set, which was translated by Sidney Shapiro.
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Post by seven stars on Oct 8, 2004 14:06:54 GMT -5
Hey Maali,
Are you reading San Guo Yan Yi (Luo Guanzhong translated), or the historical account by San Guo Zhi?
By the way I'm glad that you guys pointed out the CCH - Cao Cao parallel. Though I have not yet seen CCH, I can see the similarities based on some of what I have read in the threads.
Thanks
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Post by Maalii on Oct 8, 2004 22:11:33 GMT -5
yep. they did. especially in emperor wang guhn. which has tons and tons of ROTK refernces. {three characters are compared to zhuge liang/kongming by other people. wang guhn is compared to liu bei. and one of the dudes is compared to zhao yun. even kyun geum-kang swallowing his eye after it was shot by an arrow, was without any doubt a reference to xiahou dun swallowing his own eye. he even said the exact same lines: "how can i get rid of this precious gift from my parents?" on a side note, since i can't PM you {you aren't registered} have you read "outlaws of the marsh"? other than ROTK, that is the greatest book i have ever read. {aside form ROTK, of course} it takes place in the 12th century {1127 to be exact. it shows the end of the song dynasty, and the coming of Jin}. it is a tale passed down for hundreds of years, and is credited to Shi Nai'an. However, it was edited by Lou Guanzhong in the 16th century. it is an account of the life of Song Jiang, {though it is 75 % fiction}. It tells of a band of bandits {no pun intended}who all have there own reasons to join. and this amazing book tells you the individual tales of these 102 people, before they all join eachother. it never gets boring, and the action is the best i have read in any book {besides ROTK}. i'm telling, this is amazing. if you decide to give it a try, you should by the paper back set, which was translated by Sidney Shapiro. As a matter of a fact, my Outlaws of the Marsh just arrived in the mail last week (four volume paperback set, Shapiro as translator). I'm going to read it as soon as I'm done with my current read-through of RTK, which in this case will be my first read through the Moss Roberts translation. The comparison in the two translations is interesting. Roberts' version is a much smoother read, but it falls way short of the Brewitt-Taylor version when it comes to some of the more epic statements and poems. For example "reunite and divide" doesn't match "coalesce and cleave asunder" if you know what I mean. In fact at times the meaning becomes somewhat different as in Liu Bei's deathbed warning to Kongming regarding Ma Su. In B-T he says something like "his words outweigh his deeds" which, to me, is much more effective than Roberts' "he is a braggart". I guess if you want good quotes to put up on your wall, the Brewitt-Taylor version is the way to go. If you want a smoother story, the choice is Roberts. I'm itching to read Outlaws of the Marsh--I'm sure I'll enjoy it immensely. Getting back to Korean dramas, the more I hear about EWG, the more I regret I didn't see it.
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Post by Maalii on Oct 8, 2004 22:17:06 GMT -5
Hey Maali, Are you reading San Guo Yan Yi (Luo Guanzhong translated), or the historical account by San Guo Zhi? By the way I'm glad that you guys pointed out the CCH - Cao Cao parallel. Though I have not yet seen CCH, I can see the similarities based on some of what I have read in the threads. Thanks The RTK referred to is the Luo Guanzhong's novel (SGYY) rather than the historical SGZ--and the version translated into English is the Mao edition.
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iapdog3000 Liao Jin Zhao
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Post by iapdog3000 Liao Jin Zhao on Oct 9, 2004 12:23:43 GMT -5
While reading through RTK for the umpteenth time, it dawned on me that there is another RTK-AOW parallel in addition to the three sworn brothers, the Zhang Fei-Che Won and Choi Choonghon-Cao Cao similarities, and others we've talked about on this board. Another parallel is in the cliffhanger endings to the episodes. RTK has a very similar structure with its chapters, as many of the chapters end with a major character in a tight spot..."Did Chen Gong kill Cao Cao? Read the next chapter" And, like RTK, the cliff hanger ending is very quickly resolved at the beginning of the next episode/chapter. AOW is the first Korean historical drama I've watched, so I'm curious. Did the other series have the cliffhanger episode endings like AOW? I've watched Japanese historical dramas for years and they don't tend to end episodes like that (too bad). I have also watched Japanese Historic dramas for years. They were good!
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Post by Morter on Oct 11, 2004 12:23:04 GMT -5
I'm appalled you'd compare Cao Cao to Choi Choong-Hon. Not ONLY was Cao Cao not that worried about his (clans) reputation [He had the emperor for God's sake <_<], but he wasn't such a whiny old man like CCH. Cao Cao actually cared about his troops and his country. He wasn't swayed that easily because he had GOOD vassals and advisors by his side. He, unlike Choi, was also very smart, and cunning. He knew how to deal with people, than to go "OMG U DER CH4LNJE MAI OTHORITEE?!?!?!?!1!?". If Cao Cao didn't like anyone, he'd kill em just like that.
Thats why Mengde rocks and Choong Hon doesn't. Please cease such inaccurate comparisons >= \
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Post by Maalii on Oct 12, 2004 23:54:31 GMT -5
I'm appalled you'd compare Cao Cao to Choi Choong-Hon. Not ONLY was Cao Cao not that worried about his (clans) reputation [He had the emperor for God's sake <_<], but he wasn't such a whiny old man like CCH. Cao Cao actually cared about his troops and his country. He wasn't swayed that easily because he had GOOD vassals and advisors by his side. He, unlike Choi, was also very smart, and cunning. He knew how to deal with people, than to go "OMG U DER CH4LNJE MAI OTHORITEE?!?!?!?!1!?". If Cao Cao didn't like anyone, he'd kill em just like that. Thats why Mengde rocks and Choong Hon doesn't. Please cease such inaccurate comparisons >= \ I am not saying that Choonghon is Cao Cao's equal, but I am saying that I'll bet that AOW's portrayal of Choonghon was inspired in part by Cao Cao's portrayal in RTK. Choonghon for all his flaws came to power with brain power more than his own martial prowess in contrast to the other warriors in AOW. He is the only character on AOW who displayed a shred of knowledge of battlefield strategy, although as a strategist he is nowhere near in Mengde's league (few people in history are). Nor is he anywhere near as cultured as Cao Cao (who was a fine poet, among other things). I think the chilling quote by Cao Cao "I would rather betray the world than have the world betray me" applies very well to the way Choonghon's character is portrayed. Again, I'm not saying he's Cao Cao's equal, but I think AOW writers have used him as AOW's Cao Cao analogue, just as Che Won's portrayal was clearly inspired by Zhang Fei. Again, while similar in some regard, you couldn't really say that Che Won's accomplishments or talent were on a par with Yide's either (remember Yide actually used his head a few times, too).
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Post by ID on Oct 13, 2004 15:25:10 GMT -5
"OMG U DER CH4LNJE MAI OTHORITEE?!?!?!?!1!?". what the hell?
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Post by ID on Oct 13, 2004 15:50:48 GMT -5
Maali, form what I understand, the Moss Roberts version is abridged and they skip many details. I have only read the original translation, and i have enjoyed it completely,though it is a very long read.
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Post by Maalii on Oct 13, 2004 23:02:01 GMT -5
Maali, form what I understand, the Moss Roberts version is abridged and they skip many details. I have only read the original translation, and i have enjoyed it completely,though it is a very long read. By original, you mean Brewitt-Taylor? (which is the first English language translation of RTK). There are abridged and full versions of both B-T and Moss Roberts. I have the full versions of each (the Moss Roberts one is a four volume set in paperback). I am actually under the impression that the MR version has a bit more detail in some of the scenes and is thus a bit longer overall. I can't really compare length because they are different page formats (1260p in two volume hardbound set for B-T) with my MR having smaller pages and much less compressed type (2340 p including notes). Again, however, the best quotes in B-T just don't come across as well in MR. I am curious to see what the notes in MR say about the apparent plot gap in Chapters 106 -107 (I'm at Ch 70 in MR right now).
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Post by ID on Oct 15, 2004 11:37:31 GMT -5
"OMG U DER CH4LNJE MAI OTHORITEE!!1!?".
OH MY FREAKING GOD! I SITLL CAN"T GET OVER THAT. WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS SENTENCE MEAN?
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Post by seven stars on Oct 15, 2004 11:38:56 GMT -5
It is a long read, although I don't find it to be a difficult one. Maali's statement at the beginning of this thread illustrates nicely how entertaining it is to read ROTK. I feel like it keeps you on the edge of your seat.
The reason I specify the version being read, is because I'm told that there are some key differences between SGYY and SGZ.
Do you guys know about any of those?
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Post by Maalii on Oct 15, 2004 12:09:05 GMT -5
It is a long read, although I don't find it to be a difficult one. Maali's statement at the beginning of this thread illustrates nicely how entertaining it is to read ROTK. I feel like it keeps you on the edge of your seat. The reason I specify the version being read, is because I'm told that there are some key differences between SGYY and SGZ. Do you guys know about any of those? Yes it is an immensely entertaining read and one of the really cool things about it is that it gets even better on repeat readings because you start to really pick up on some of the more subtle touches. As for SGYY v SGZ there is a very big difference. The SGZ is regarded as a historical account of the time whereas SGYY (ROTK) is a historical novel. To my knowledge there is no complete English translation of the SGZ available--there are bits and pieces translated on various ROTK websites. The SGZ is apparently not structured in narrative form for it consists of a series of biographies of various people of that time. SGZ was written not long after the three kingdoms period ended, whereas SGYY was written more than a thousand years later. There was also a big evolution in point of view from the time of SGZ's writing to the writing of SGYY--SGZ is pro-Wei whereas SGYY is, of course, pro-Shu. The decided anti Wei bias of SGYY has been explained as a product of the political backdrop in China at the time it was written. However I think it also suits the dramatic qualities of the novel best--it's always easier to make the underdog the hero. Given the superb crafting of the novel, it wouldn't surprise me if the author's decision to slant SGYY pro Shu was more dramatic then political.
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Post by seven stars on Oct 15, 2004 16:47:48 GMT -5
Thanks Maalii! I've heard much of that before, but never stated so elouquently, and all in one place. You are a true ROTK buff Maalii.
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