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Post by florel unlogged on Aug 3, 2005 15:29:22 GMT -5
Thanks, sunami, for sharing your treasure with us.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 15:58:45 GMT -5
What does your family do in Korea? and from wich region your family is? Mine family both of them are originally from hwang-hae-do, and my grandfather (father family) was a photographer in seoul later, he said to me he learned it in the hospital (he was shot by an airplane inside the train when the civil war begun) because in that time they sold little match boxes that were glued with photographic papers inside and he had to stay still for minutes to get the printing, he was also a policeman for japanese (i guess he had to sustain his family) and spoke perfect chinese and japanese...my father became a publicity agency photographer in Brazil but passed away when i had 5 years old...From my mother part of the family it seems they were always rich and my grandfather family had rice mills before the civil war...my grandfather also had one of the first harley davidson´s of korea as my mother tells....a crazy elegant little old guy that died from drinking problems....
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 16:24:43 GMT -5
oh my god i have to correct a major mistake.... my grandfather was never a policeman for the japanese because he became policeman when my father was with 1 or two years old and that was in 45...i´m so relieved......
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 16:56:07 GMT -5
My home town is won-ju kang-won-do. You know that won-kyun's family is from won-ju. Won-ju won is famous family clan there historically.
I belong to kwang-ju Lee family. I think Lee duk-hyun(A.K.A. han-eum) is my ancestor in immortal Yi. I am not going to go into family details here but my dad is retired business man and mom is retired pharmarcist. My mother was born in yong-jung bukkando and spent her childhood there(it is curretly chinese territory). They visited there a few years ago. My mom's side family adopted christianity in that period. My great grandfather became a minister and my grand father became minister too.
My grand father did ministery all over korea and settled in Gure (Jun-ra province). He was executed by north communist during korean war. In gure, he has monument there and I visited there when I was kid. My dad side grand father was acholic guy. The thing is that his eldest brother was a general in Dok-rip-gun(korean independence force(?)). He was assassinated by communists right after liberation before korean war. He got awarded for medal. My parents told me that he was still alive after many gun shots and died with rage in hospital. He was so angry that he fought for independece and finally saw it. Then he has to be murdered by same people.
So I can see my grand father never had stability in his life if that was an excuse. I will probably be alcholic if I was born in that period. I have utmost respect for my parent generation. They survived japanese colonization,korean war, military dictatorship. I am so happy to see them traveling world together now. They deserve it.
You can see that any kind of korean family is full of drama and we have to live with drama whether you like it or not.
I am currently settled in US.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 17:20:37 GMT -5
exactly....that´s why we like so much korean dramas? and that´s why we are so good at it? all my friends that are not koreans thinks i´m so dramatic...but you know drinking soju and spitting out my guts and saying norur sarang-he for friends after some more cups and five minutes later kicking his ass or being kicked ...unfortunately this kinds of things never happened with non korean friends, they live me before auhuaauhuha..... You are right....korea suffered so much for the whole century.... Ah my grand grandfather (by father´s side) also was a minister and it is said in my family that they were one of the first families to become christians and they were from Hun-chun in manchuria now...was there any focal christianity point in northern korea? I have to correct this properly...my father was born in 1945 so my grandfather became policeman or in 1946 or in 1947 after japanese colonization.....
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Post by florel on Aug 3, 2005 17:47:56 GMT -5
I belong to kwang-ju Lee family. I think Lee duk-hyun(A.K.A. han-eum) is my ancestor in immortal Yi. In the IYSS drama, we can find three members of Gwangju Yi (= Kwangju LEE) clan. - Yi Jun-Kyung (1499-1572) : the Prime Minister when king Sunjo was young. Descendant of Right Minister Yi Geuk-Gam (1427-1465). - Yi Duk-Hyung (1561-1613) : the Prime Minister in the early reign of Prince Gwanghae. He was a descendant of Yi Geuk-Gyun (1437-1504), brother of Yi Geuk-Gam and the Prime Minister persecuted by Prince Yonsan. - Yi Gwang-Ak (1557-1608) : Commander of Cholla Army in 1598 during the Japanese second invasion. He also fought in the 1st Battle of Chinju along with Gen. Kim Shi-Min. (In the drama, the captain in bleu armor.) I guess he was a descendant of Yi Yun-Kyung, brother of the Prime Minister Yi Jun-Kyung, but I'm not sure of it. Oh... I'm not their descendant. I don't have such a prestigious ancestor. ;D And.. recently clan Yi of Gwangju had another Prime Minister, Mr. Yi Su-Sung. He belongs to another branch of Gwangju clan that was the most active during the 17th century. So are you in the Minister-family, meow ?
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 17:58:00 GMT -5
Florel, how do you know so many things living in france? i´m amazed with you ... quel´ést votre histoire? Meow, your family history is really interesting and i guess not only you but we would be two alcoholic guys in that times
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Post by florel on Aug 3, 2005 18:16:00 GMT -5
Florel, how do you know so many things living in france? i´m amazed with you ... quel´ést votre histoire? Meow, your family history is really interesting and i guess not only you but we would be two alcoholic guys in that times I have University diplomas both in Korea (in History) and in France (in Art field). So I learned a lot about Korean history when I was in Korea because I was a history disciple and a history drama maniac. There are no interesting stuffs about my modest family. I'm a descendant of a southerner clan persecuted in the end of the 17th century. So my direct ancestors became very poor (perhaps similar to peasants) in the end of the Chosun period. But I'm proud of it because I have no ancestor like Yun Du-Su or Yi Wan-Yong. And there are no alcoholic in my family... perhaps except me who are living in an alcoholic country(=France). ;D (I drink too much Bordeaux. lol) An uncle of my mother was sent by force to Japan as worker during the Japanese occupation (so my mother's cousins are Korean Japanese and they don't speak Korean) and a cousin of my father disappeared during the Korean War. Indeed, there are no family that haven't been affected by the tragic and tremendous modern history of Korea.
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 20:17:03 GMT -5
thanks for EnlightenmentFlorel ;D
I am not sure about details of my family tree book(Jok-bo). My parents were pretty much careless about Jok-bo stuff.
Back in korea, one time in my hometown church, they did survey regarding Jok-bo(family tree book). Survey result was that a lot of elder people thought Jok-bo(family tree book) is stupid thing and should have abolished. Young people think Jok-bo has its own meaning and should be preserved.
I think elder people were sick of clan society and they saw more bad things than good thing regarding Jok-bo. I was careless about jok-bo too. However, living abroad making me think twice about jok-bo, it does not matter whether your ancestor was slave,villain and etc. I think it is meaningful to have that record. I should study more and at least tell my children where they come from.
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 20:31:51 GMT -5
I forgot to show my appreciation what you and choko does for this website. I am quite enjoying history vs fiction thread. I wish I had more history knowledge. thanks
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 20:44:48 GMT -5
"was there any focal christianity point in northern korea?"
I think that nothern part was very internationalizaed and industrial region at that time. Before korean war, north korea was richer country and more industrialized than south. They prbably saw and contacted more western stuff there than south korea at that time.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 20:48:09 GMT -5
It looks that my surname is not in the jok-bo, i really would like to see it, as my family says it seems that chun (jeon, or zen in japanese or chuan in chinese means everything, all) was actually a trascription from wang (king), they just put the hat in the character wang because they were as my family says some chinese region kings without nation and persecuted flew to korea and disguised its surname (look this could be one more of those histories that my family just told me to shut my curiosity over, things that maybe they mustn't know either).....i wish i could solve this doubt but someday i'll go to hun-chun.....(background music playing will be new york new york from frank sinatra as i enter the city) In a biased view of my personal history it could be something like the guy who had a grandfather who worked for the japanese as a policeman and beat the crap out on the koreans but was actually a chinese king disguised as korean, what makes me, i suppose, a spy from the north koreans working for the american japanese colonialists who wants to convince everybody that china is good....wow this is much better than being a guy who works in an office in front of the computer daily...
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 5, 2005 16:38:14 GMT -5
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Post by BungalowDweller on Aug 6, 2005 1:17:40 GMT -5
But, what's important here is the orthodoxy. China is not happy enough for just having control of the land. It also wants the history that happened on that land. Suppose China absorbes North Korea in the event that North Korea collapses (which is actually one of the biggest reasons of Northeast Asian project). The northern half of Korean peninsula now belongs to China. But that doesn't mean that 5000 years of Korean history that happened on that land is now suddenly a part of Chinese history. It's because China wants claim even to the ancestral heritage of Koreans that Korea is upset about it. Suppose I create a painting. Then I give it to this guy named China, so it doesn't belong to me any more. China has the legal ownership of the painting. Does that change the fact that I'm the one who drew it? No, it doesn't. Yet, China is not satisfied with just owning the painting. He also wants to say to others that he is the one who drew it. That's the unacceptable part of all this. That's what China does to its surrouding peoples. Yes, Roman roads may not exactly be Italian, but France doesn't say that the parts of those roads that are within French territory are 'French roads'. No, Italy can't do anything to those roads that are outside of Italy, because it doesn't belong to Italy. But surely, Italians can look at the roads and aquaducts and think 'Wow, look at all those great structures that our ancestors built'. The French, I don't think, can or should do that. Great analysis, donilpark. The orthodoxy is everything. The crux is the claiming of another's history as your own. Hitler claimed the ancestral heritage of Austria and part of the Czech lands, called the Sudeten lands. That is why those nations weren't destroyed by Hitler during WWII. Shortly before Hitler invaded Austria, his regime stole every last piece of gold in the Austrian treasury--the Austrians had no bargaining chips vis a vis other nations because she had no $$ so Hitler waltzed in and took over. The Czechs had treaties with France and Great Britain which obligated those nations to come to her aid if she were invaded. Both France and GB chose to ignore their side of the treaties--in fact Neville Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of GB, referred to the Czechs as a "little people, an obscure people about whom we know nothing". I suppose that's why he refused to honor the treaty and allowed the Czechs to be overrun by the Nazi boot. And once the Nazis took over--they immediately began rewriting history--claiming that Austria and the Czechlands were really "German". This is a huge point that donilpark is doggedly holding onto--both on this thread and others. It is not just the occupation of a land but the wholesale theft of its heritage that is so heinous. Sunami chun (Welcome!!) has stated that we have international bodies to take care of these issues. I don't agree. The international "community" is made up of bureaucrats who are elected by no one and accountable to no one. They do as they please. Look at the mass murders of ethnic Albanian Moslems that went on in Bosnia in UN camps! These people were to be guarded by the UN troops--the Danish were the peacekeepers there--yet the Danish were ordered not to "get involved" as the Moslems were dragged away by the Serbs and shot--men, women, children. Nothing done about it. Nothing. The UN "expressed regret" and appointed yet another blue ribbon committee to research what went wrong. Hogwash. African Christians have been murdered like pigs and their children sold into slavery for the last decade in the Sudan. Activist Christians knew about it and brought the issue forward time and again to the proper authorities. Only for the last few years has the subject even been discussed in the mainstream media. What has the "international community"done about it? Nothing! Sunami chun, Europe is not a monolith and despite the huge effort by internationists in the various nations, Europeans still see themselves as Frenchmen, Irish, Spaniards, Finns, etc. In my opinion, this European Union is being shoved down their throats. That's why it's a dormant issue now--people are afraid of the loss of their individual cultures. Their very identities are at stake. Florel stated earlier that it always amazes her about various animosities that Europeans have for one another. As a "white ethnic" (a term one NEVER hears anymore because it's not politically expedient) it frankly amazes me that others are amazed. The Polish hate the Germans for what the Nazis did to their country. Warsaw, her capital, was totally destroyed--not one stone left upon another. An ancient city of a proud Slavic nation-vaporized. Look at Poland's WWII legacy. It is remembered more for the Nazi death camps than for its Resistance movement which survived in the sewers of Warsaw after the city was emptied and burned. Why the traditional hatred between the English and Irish? For the same reason donilpark is discussing. When the English took over after Cromwell, the Irish were forbidden to speak their native tongue, worship their way, sing folk songs, fly flags, etc. They couldn't even refer to their nation as Ireland, because according to the English, Ireland was no more. The Irish took to calling Ireland "The Old Woman". The great Irish Famine and subsequent movement of the Irish to the US was caused not only because of a blight that caused potato crops to fail but because all during the famine the English overlords were EXPORTING food from Ireland to England! After all, those crops belonged to Them. Starving people or not. Korea must look primarily to herself to survive. Isn't that the very thing one of the ruling lords told the King? The same is true of all nations who wish to remain free. When a nation looks to other nations to defend its interests its days of freedom are numbered. Korea may be small next to the giants of China and the former USSR to the north, but its crucial geographic location make it a key player in global affairs. Korea will be a cat's paw for no one. As for the issue of disgrace in Korea's submission as discussed by sunami chun--there is not a nation in central and eastern europe that doesn't now stuggle with its past submission under communism. People feel great shame. Not everybody, mind you, I don't mean this to be a blanket statement, but many people. Particularly nations that didn't take up arms against the Nazis or the Communist coups after WWII. Shame is engrained in the Czech national psyche. Lest anyone accuse me of hating Communism or having a hidden agenda, let me make this perfectly clear. I Do hate Communism for what it did in the past and continues to do to millions of people. Including my own family. I hate totalitarianism and make no excuse for it. And while we're sharing ethnic pedigree--I'm second generation Irish-American. I'm married to an "American by Choice"--born in the former Czechoslovakia, but not Czech, a Vlach (try to find what happened to This people group!) He escaped the Communist hell at age 19. A Slavic/Celtic marriage--a volatile mix of white peoples who share no commonality whatsoever! I studied the political systems of Japan and Korea at the university many years ago, as well as researching the effects of Communist ideology upon the personality and like sunami chun derive great pleasure and learning from the people on this board. FIN
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 6, 2005 13:46:46 GMT -5
thanks for the great write-up. Great site to read this kind of writing. I really appreciate. Whenever I read news about genocide in Africa, it is just so frustrating. Are we humans all just horrible in nature? is there any other means and possibility for us to evolve besides race, religion, nation and etc? I guess communism was a trial but did not work well. However, with current capitalism, earth will bring down her knees soon. If every one in the world start driving like an American and consuming energy like an American(this is not american bashing just saying if we have american standard life all in the world), it will just not hold up. will technology save us? Human is the worst thing to happen for earth.
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