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Post by skinz on Aug 2, 2005 14:02:31 GMT -5
. And despite we see so many koreans who do not share this image, if a nation with this philosophy and culture could breed a remarkable human being like Yi Soon Shin that was worth it all.... ...(i don´t know if this is only my nationalism blinding me but i didn´t see in any other country´s history someone like him, even in tolkien´s Great stuff Sunami, Look like someone had a lot on their mind ;D. I don't enough knowledge about Chosun society or China and her past relationship with foreign cultures, so I won't comment on that. Anyway, your statement above don't do justice to a lot of very important historical figures all over the world. There are plenty of people who have done something similar things like YSS or something else that helped for their independence. There is Toussaint L'Ouverture, who started the first successful black slave rebellion in history and gave Haiti independence and fought against the france,britian,and spain, and there's also Admiral Themistocles who defeated the persian navy,who were twice the size of his and others. We all have national pride so thats understanding but remember there's a lot of history in this world.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 2, 2005 15:35:59 GMT -5
Yeah ;D i do recognize it is a bit over estimated, but you know his righteousness and determination, his loniless and sensibility, his love for his mother and country, courage, inteligence, diligence, patience, his faith and boldness, it´s really hard to see someone with all these characteristics alltogether and put into proof as he was, i mean 54 years old beaten to crap and turned to a mere soldier and after that he could manage to save his country destroying a force 12 times superior than his, what a soul?! I cried when i saw his first episode man when he is about to die and he says looking to the vast sea and the sun pour down orange in the ocean "What a beautifull sunset" as he was saying of his own life, it was a thought from him in the soap opera but doesn´t matter.....his mother had a dream when he was born that he would become a great general and from a dream to a beautifull sunset i´ve learned so many things....
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 2, 2005 17:12:41 GMT -5
I think you are confused with Gwan-hae gun and Yeon-San gun. One is smart one and the other one is an assXX.
Dae jang-geum historical background starts from Yeon-san gun period.
Jo-sun king's historical record (josun wang jo sil rok (1392~1803) is somewhat objective and rigorous historical record in given circustances. No king was not allowed to see his record. One king who broke this rule is Yeon-san gun.
General Yee's records are all written in detail too and what was sun jo's response to each event. So we are not talking about some make up legend here.
This books alone proves that josun was not just some chinese vassal state.
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Post by donilpark on Aug 2, 2005 18:29:24 GMT -5
It's not about the territory and ruins and relics though. Yes, the ancient land that Koguryo ruled now belongs to Democratic People's Republic of China. There's no argument about that, nor am I saying that China should return that ancient Koguryo land to Korea. But, what's important here is the orthodoxy. China is not happy enough for just having control of the land. It also wants the history that happened on that land. Suppose China absorbes North Korea in the event that North Korea collapses (which is actually one of the biggest reasons of Northeast Asian project). The northern half of Korean peninsula now belongs to China. But that doesn't mean that 5000 years of Korean history that happened on that land is now suddenly a part of Chinese history. It's because China wants claim even to the ancestral heritage of Koreans that Korea is upset about it.
Suppose I create a painting. Then I give it to this guy named China, so it doesn't belong to me any more. China has the legal ownership of the painting. Does that change the fact that I'm the one who drew it? No, it doesn't. Yet, China is not satisfied with just owning the painting. He also wants to say to others that he is the one who drew it. That's the unacceptable part of all this. That's what China does to its surrouding peoples. Yes, Roman roads may not exactly be Italian, but France doesn't say that the parts of those roads that are within French territory are 'French roads'. No, Italy can't do anything to those roads that are outside of Italy, because it doesn't belong to Italy. But surely, Italians can look at the roads and aquaducts and think 'Wow, look at all those great structures that our ancestors built'. The French, I don't think, can or should do that.
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Post by moon on Aug 2, 2005 19:31:48 GMT -5
But, what's important here is the orthodoxy. China is not happy enough for just having control of the land. It also wants the history that happened on that land. Suppose China absorbes North Korea in the event that North Korea collapses (which is actually one of the biggest reasons of Northeast Asian project). The northern half of Korean peninsula now belongs to China. But that doesn't mean that 5000 years of Korean history that happened on that land is now suddenly a part of Chinese history. It's because China wants claim even to the ancestral heritage of Koreans that Korea is upset about it. And what of japans current goals of claiming korean land as well as rewriting history? Please you dont have to keep enforcing your biased opinion that china is bad. You should look at what other nations like japan, do before you decide to only judge what china does. The world is not as black and white as you see it. There are different shades of grey that represents peaceful exists with these countries. There is no need to spread your biased views as we already know what you feel about chinese.
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Post by donilpark on Aug 2, 2005 20:04:42 GMT -5
I didn't say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about Japan. Did I ever say what Japan was doing was acceptable? I didn't even mention Japan in any way in my post. Was I tolerant of Japan doing the same thing as China? I wasn't. Why are you bringing Japan in? Do you think that would make me look like a anti-China japanophile and therefore what I say about China will all be invalid? The topic of the thread happens to be about Korea-China relationship, so that's what I talk about, not Japan. I have a shitload of things to rant about Japan if it comes to that. What's the problem here?
(are you wiked? Sorry, but can't help notice the same degree of biasedness and foolishness)
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 2, 2005 21:13:13 GMT -5
meowmeow, do you know if they have this book you are saying in english i really would like to see it? There is a chapter in the book "Joseon Royal Court Culture about this this annals (sillok) that they translated as "Veritable Records"and there was the office for annals compilations (chunchu-gwan and sijeonggi), they say that historians tried to maintain as legitimate as possible even risking their lifes to do it but there is not much further informations....about gwanghaegun, i told you that i hadn't the complete and real information so please feel free to correct me.... but about being a vassal state what we were talking is that there are records in china and in korea that we were it indeed, and it is unquestionable but Florel showed a text that vassalage had a different significancy from the european version meaning economical privilegies rather than political submission....i would like to study some more about this vassalage system including thai royal court towards china before getting any conclusion and maybe even reading the "silloks" if possible....anyway don't matter what politically or socially it looks (that chosun was a submissive society towards ming china) we developed confucionism further and this is what made mans like YSS, Sejong King and many others and that's why we love so much Korea and have this thirst for learning. So this is also why it is Koreans who shouldn't have biased history views because we love justice and try not to have lies in our history....i truly believe that real confucian scholars were the lighting house of Korea and we have to respect our legacy and act as them with righteousness and triyng to show others this light in darkness (oh my god i'm inspired today ) respecting others and truly believing that the mistakes are always ours not from others...About Japan oh mygod i have so many complaints about them inherited from my family almost genealogical hate, but i also have so many japanese friends in Brazil even a former girlfriend that it would be treacherous and stupid to have prejudice towards them and when i watched YSS and read his books and talked to my japanese friends they were amazed that asia has such a rich history and korea was more developed than japan before and they accept the fact that japan was similar to sparta with its samurais and korea to athens with its confucian scholars, that we had public exams almost a thousand years ago and that we had such a beautifull political system in the beggining of chosun's period with its faction representing different view points from the same idea and etc, etc...but the stain and untouchable subject is that we didn't by our arrogance (calling them the tiny japaneses and i even read a poem from a chosuneses scholar that talked so badly about japan) share our knowledge with them before imjin wars....and as the tv show shows it clearly was our arrogance and ignorance that made japanese invasions so crushing to Chosun...just to quote: when they received a rifle from the japanese envoys to show the power of their military they even paid attention, another case was the political struggle over who would succeed Sunjo King at the iminent moment of invasion...pitifull but our mistake....
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 1:16:39 GMT -5
Yes, there is english version of Josun wangjo sil rok but this is not something you can buy from amazon. University library kind might have this.
It is total 1893volume 888 book.
When dongil-park does heated discussion, it is based on korean historical record and show how goryo is same line with go-gu-ryo.
Samguk Sa gi (written by kim bu-sik[(1075∼1151)]. It is consisted of 10 book 50 volume. It describes three kingdom period in go-ryo point of view. Clearly it is nonesense to claim go-gu-ryo as china history(whatever that is). China communists need to worry more about rapid polarization of have and have-not's and internal corruption than history I think. I think dongilpark concern is legitimate concern judging by tibet situation. He can be more political to express his idea. None of asian country think tibet is part of china whatever they claim. It is just another fat boy bullying around for a while hopefully. Tibet people maintain their history and nation up to now. I believe they will go on like korea did during dark colonial days. We know how horrible you lose your languague, culture and history. I remember that a lot of korean mountains still have iron stack in their root which is placed by japanese. Putting iron stack in the mountain might look harmless. Idea behind it is to kill spirit of people.
Another book is Sam-guk yoo sa (written by il yon[1206∼1289]). It is pretty much age of warriors period .
I think you have right attitude if I may say. I think we have come up with new paradigm based on clear head and start conversation with our neighborhood.
I have a few relatives in Brazil and Argentina. My uncle moved to brazil during agriculture immigration period. He lives in saint paulo now.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 10:22:11 GMT -5
Sugohessubnida everybody! Thank you all for the very instructive informations, i will try study some more despite is very hard to get this books and also get time to read them. I confess i deliberately chose this subject to try to raise a political discussion but i don´t think the heatness over any subject convinces anybody. As I told you guys there are international organisms that can take better care bout Goguryo and its treasures so i think it´s the best way to make other nations be aware that it is part of Korean History and not chinese putting them in the middle, about the idea that China will take over North Korea it is highly improbable, because north koreans consider themselves as the real chosun legacy bearers and chosun was a free indepent (althought the vassalage system) country 800 years before right? unless they try to change that too and i think it´s impossible since we have the historical sites in our side....north koreans wouldn´t allow it without fight and south koreans either...this is a too conspirative theory for me....this energy should be used to think in the unification process... Florel, as soon as i can i will ask my mother to build a scanner for me because she don´t buy me stuff for centuries Skinz, my mind was boiling with ideas and almost coking my brain because i couldn´t share with no one so this forum was a true find...thanks for your post I finished my vacations so i won´t be able to participate so much anymore but i expect to post a translation of the Sejong King´s exam (gwa-go) that i found and shows his extraordinary talent to govern...... see you all
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 11:46:13 GMT -5
Oh I´ve forgot...talking about unification it seems this northeastern project raised many protests from North Koreans also what is a good thing i guess...
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Post by florel unlogged on Aug 3, 2005 12:15:35 GMT -5
Florel, as soon as i can i will ask my mother to build a scanner for me because she don´t buy me stuff for centuries I wish we could see the legendary "dedicate" one day.
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 13:15:22 GMT -5
My mother didn´t know how to build a scanner but she had a digital camera so here it is.... ;D
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Post by chigirl68 on Aug 3, 2005 13:20:40 GMT -5
Very cool sunami. Thanks for sharing. And...sorry I didn't welcome you aboard before. So... WELCOME ! ! !
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Post by sunami chun on Aug 3, 2005 13:44:27 GMT -5
Nice to meet you too chigirl! and i was wrong, he signed kim myong min first and then he signed yi soon shin.... Meowmeow, i live in sao paulo also, did your relatives came here with the japaneses 90 years ago? because i don´t know any korean here that works in the agricultural business, only those who came with the japanese imigration... about my family, my father came here after the vietnamese war that he had to fight for korea...he went there as a military journalist, documenting for the military with his super 8 that americans gave to us, he said when he was alive that he wanted to live in a more open minded country and because his family was poor there also....My mother´s family lost their small department store that sold imported goods, to the military dictatorship (because there was a movement against imported goods i don´t remember the name of it and they just took everything and closed the store)....so here i´m in Brazil a magnificent country with the nicest people talking about korea with the nicest people in the world
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Post by meowmeow on Aug 3, 2005 15:27:00 GMT -5
During president park period, there was briefly opening for immigration to brazil. The requirement was that they have to dedicate certain years in agriculture (farming) stuff. Last winter, my parent visited brazil and argentina for the first time and they were happy to see them. He told uncle's family in clothing business.
I heard that after korean war, some of war prisoners did not want to choose neither south nor north korea and a lot of them chose south america for their destination instead.
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