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Post by ginnycat5 on Jul 21, 2005 21:08:07 GMT -5
Do you mean that they come right out and say they owned Korea or they are rewriting history books and actually have named the process Northeast Asia Project? How public is this? btw, I read an article about the tens of thousands of computer hackers China has been training for years...with what aim??
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Post by wik on Jul 21, 2005 21:17:35 GMT -5
Maybe. But isn't that somewhat naive? There's really no friends here. Only pretending when times are good (or rather, when things are unfavourable for you, you lie low and play friends). Not to be cynical here, but it's not any different now. China is still trying to steal Korea's entire heritage, culture and orthodoxy by stealing Koguryo and even Ancient Chosun history with its Northeast Asian Project. Stealing others' history and heritage is something that China has been doing since the beginning and succeeded at large. To have one's heritage taken away and become rootless people? If that's not a threat, than I don't know what else can be. Nope this is just a distorted view of the world based on your own opinion. In away your own views sound very much like the hateful propaganda that japan is spreading to its own people about korea and china. Funny how you never question japans shady past but only china's. If more people think like you,then there truly will be a global war in the future.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 21, 2005 22:04:31 GMT -5
Do you mean that they come right out and say they owned Korea or they are rewriting history books and actually have named the process Northeast Asia Project? How public is this? Why, in fact, they do. You didn't see that coming, did you? Try reading a few articles. marmot.cc/hswl/?theDate=200412022&searchText=authortimes.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200408/kt2004080117452410510.htmwww.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0,13675,501040823-682338,00.html hnn.us/comments/25876.htmlYou don't have to read the articles in full, but just read the first few lines to get the idea of what China is trying to do. (of course, feel free to read the entire articles if you want) Even without these, though, you already know about Northwest Asian Project and what happened to Tibet. Or do you not? Than I think you should. It's no joke or laughing matter, how China eradicates and exterminates a culture and heritage. Not to excuse Japan of its own faults, with their hideous claims regarding 'Imna' (or in Japanese, 'Mimana') in ancient history and more recently about the events during WWII and on (unit 731, massacres, sex slaves... the list goes on and on). You're getting this all wrong. Unlike what they are doing, what I'm saying is not a lie. They are the ones who are denying and hiding and distorting everything against the clear evidences. This is not a hateful propaganda for the sake of hating them. I'm not saying I should go out and kill all Chinese and Japanese. This is only a fight for truth. And I don't see anything wrong with that. I mean, if you want to accuse someone of spreading falsehood based on his own opinion, I suggest that you first at least do some research and try to find out if what he is saying is true or not before just coming out and insinuating that it is "a distorted view of the world based on his own opinion." That's no good. It won't hold up.
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Post by ginnycat5 on Jul 22, 2005 12:31:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the links, donilpark. That's so appalling-what can be done -anything from here? Sounds like they are not exactly "restoring" the site, they are altering it and deceptively at that. There should be no historians who accept it.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 22, 2005 13:54:54 GMT -5
Hopefully they won't, but its by the Chinese historians under the comission of the Chinese government who started this to begin with. If they can make it so that the whole world looks at the issue their way, than what Korean historians think, or for that matter, the truth, doesn't matter any more. That's the funny thing aboug history. There's something one day, and than the next day, it changes to something else for some reason. And a child who is born after this change occured will think that it have been as that way since the beginning unless the older generations teach what it was like before the change.
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Post by wik on Jul 22, 2005 18:26:45 GMT -5
Not to excuse Japan of its own faults, with their hideous claims I mean, if you want to accuse someone of spreading falsehood based on his own opinion, I suggest that you first at least do some research and try to find out if what he is saying is true or not before just coming out and insinuating that it is "a distorted view of the world based on his own opinion." That's no good. It won't hold up. But this has nothing to do with Yi Soon Shin and is nothing more than political mambojumbo designed to incite animosity. I dont see the significants of doing such things here. this link you gave, is just someones opinion on a blog. Opinions do not equal to facts. marmot.cc/hswl/?theDate=200412022&searchText=authorand this quote from hnn.us/comments/25876.html"A group of South Korean historians have accused the Chinese government of attempting to claim part of Korea's ancient history as its own." That statement in and of its self is openly biased. Clearly South korea does not like china simply for the fact that it communicated and gets along with North korea. But thats how peaceful negotiations work. the world should be built on friendship and talks. Not on paranoia or fears. By the way most of those articles are old.
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Post by meowmeow on Jul 22, 2005 18:46:02 GMT -5
I think awareness is good.
China's geo political stability can be easily degraded into utter chaos such as internal war if history teaches us anyting. Rapid poloarization of have and have-nots does not help either. On top of that, controlling more than 70 different races(?) is challenging. They want to control history and mainpulate it if that is necessary.
I think china is afraid of soviet collapse. It can easily happen overnight once they lose control.
You have to look more carefully when chinese historian claims something.
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Post by ginnycat5 on Jul 22, 2005 19:11:53 GMT -5
We saw what happened to Tibet, the monasteries, the monks, the influx of people to change the demographics. And they claimthat it was always theirs. phooey. etc.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 22, 2005 19:12:30 GMT -5
The topic is not Yi Sunshin here. It's "animated history map/1000 years", and while we were there, we kind of got into discussing this. Please, don't you confuse what the topic is of this thread. This has nothing to do with Yi Sunshin. Yeah, one of the links. It's actually talking about Balhae, rather than Koguryo, so maybe I shouldn't have put it there at all. I just put it there because they are very closely related issues, but if you think this was irrelevant, discard it. Who says? North Korea is upset about it too. www.freenorthkorea.net/archives/freenorthkorea/000818.htmlIt's not a matter of opinion that some Chinese historians and government officials openly claimed Koguryo as a part of Chinese history, or that Koguryo was deleted from their foreign ministry webpage or that Ancient Chosun is never mentioned in their history textbooks. These are facts. The articles are old, yes, but it's an ongoing thing. China and Korea agreed to drop the subject some time ago, and the heat died down a bit now, but that doesn't mean that this is over and done with. yaleglobal.yale.edu/article.print?id=4414And what's biased about that statement? China did attempt to claim a part of Korea's ancienty history, and some South Korean historians did criticize that. I only see factual information here. Not that any of the links I gave you were biased, but if you still doubt that China is trying to claim Koguryo history as its own, than try this one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KoguryoAn article from wikipedia encyclopedia. Would that qualify for you as an 'unbiased' source? (hey, that's your screen name, by the way) Read the "Modern politics" section of the article.
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Post by Heather on Jul 22, 2005 19:57:50 GMT -5
You know, that statement applies to Japan, as well. The music group B.O.A. is extremely popular in Japan, and for the anime fans, the lovely seiyuu (voice artist) Paku Romi (Park Ro Mi) although born and lives in Tokyo, is Korean. And everytime I buy food items online, it's from a Japanese seller and I always get kimchi ramen! Plus the Japanese and Korean film industries seem rather civil and helpful towards the other, if you judge by joint productions such as Fighter in the Wind and 2009 Lost Memories - the latter of which actually explores the idea of Japan's "ownership" of Korea in a sci-fi alternate history tale. And the Ring franchise, where the producers of the original Japanese version of the film actually funded Korea's Ring Virus. And no, I'm not taking sides or casting blame or any such thing. It's just that every once in awhile I hear a statement or thought on this forum that strikes me rather hostile towards Japan. I realize that may be due to the fact all our common ground stems from a TV show where the view-point is on Japan as the antagonist, and politics and history make it so, but I still find it unsettling. Why does there always have to be a "bad guy". Can't there simply be two sides with different and/or misunderstood thoughts and backgrounds? I know this is a pretty pointless statement in the long run, but I don't like to get involved in political discussions and current news because, well, I'm very ignorant of the subject. I'd only be another American voicing an opinion on a heavy matter that no doubt goes over my head. Probably why I prefer to get involved with foreign countries through entertainment. There doesn't seem to be the kind of animosity between those like-minded people that you see so often in politics and government fanfare. But thank you for the links, donilpark. I'll check them out and try to expand my knowledge. And thanks to ginnycat5 for the map! ~ Heather www.isotype-newtype.com/
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Post by donilpark on Jul 22, 2005 22:08:01 GMT -5
One point to go over. That would be only when there is complete moral relativism. i.e. when there is no morality at all. We all think, by our standards of morality, that what Japan did during WWII was wrong. (this is just an example. I'm not particularly trying to point a finger at Japan here) At least I hope everyone thinks that way. This one, this is not a simple matter of two sides having different viewpoints. This is about right and wrong. Yes, some things that don't involve moral decision may be regarded in that way. So there's nothing wrong with cultural exchanges and working together for a common goal. I mean, I don't know how to put it here, but isn't Yi Sunshin a great man not only for his brilliant strategies and tactics but also because of how he was loyal to his own people and his nation? If there's an invasion from outside, it makes perfect sense that you should fight to defend yourself and your own people. It doesn't matter whether the invasion is to take the land or to take your heritage. It would be nice if we could forget all about what's right (defending your nation) and what's wrong (invading a neighbour) and just sit back to enjoy the costume and buildings and good looking actors and actresses and nothing more than that, but that doesn't sound like something we should do, does it? Anyway, I don't think lies and distortions qualify for just 'misunderstood thoughts,' although there may be other situations where it was true. The issue of history is no such situation.
But you're right too. We shouldn't become aggressive and hate each other. Because hating someone costs you more than being hated. It really exhausts and drains you. I don't want to get any more serious either.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Jul 23, 2005 18:47:18 GMT -5
. Not to be cynical here, but it's not any different now. China is still trying to steal Korea's entire heritage, culture and orthodoxy by stealing Koguryo and even Ancient Chosun history with its Northeast Asian Project. Stealing others' history and heritage is something that China has been doing since the beginning and succeeded at large. Enough said with Tibet. You can find numerous cases like these in the so-called 'Chinese' history. That's something real scary, you know? To have one's heritage taken away and become rootless people? If that's not a threat, than I don't know what else can be. Thanks for your analysis, Donilpark! Interesting and beautifully written. Many years ago I attended a seminar hosted by a group that monitored religious freedoms in "closed societies" (communist and other repressive regimes). Scholars from all over the world attended and spoke about documented, varifiable abuses as varied as Bibles in Romania being distroyed and made into toilet paper or mass slaughter of Moslems in Bulgaria. One particular presenter I've never forgotten. She was a tiny woman who appeared to look Chinese, but she was a Crimean Tartar. She presented a paper in the Russian language because she couldn't speak any English. My husband performed simultaneous interpreting of her paper. In it the woman discussed specific incidents of mass forced migration, the loss of land, separation of family, the willful destruction of museums and other holding places of history, the confiscation of books and other antiquities, taken to Moscow and never seen again. Mass arrests resulting in thousands disappearing into the concentration camps. Laws forbidding the speaking of the Tartar language, the wearing of traditional garb, etc. She didn't know enough of her own language to present her research in it. It IS scary. Millions of people have disappeared under such ethnic cleansing. Languages, cultures, etc have been permanently lost. The only modern people group that I can think of that has returned from the brink of extinction as a people are the Armenians. Most people have never heard of these people groups, each with a unique culture present in the lands of the former Soviet Union before Stalin -- Caucasians, Volga Germans, Belorussians ,(White Russians), Kazaks, Balts, Poles, KOREANS, Karelian Finns Finnish, Meskhetian Turks, Khemshils, Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachai, the Ingush,and the Chechens. Ever since the time of Catherine the Great, when Russia overran and annexed the Crimean peninsula, the Russians dreamed of a Crimea empty of Tartars. The Tartars were a highly nationalistic people and Stalin knew he had to liquidate them. The latest scholarly data reveals that over 200,000 of them were deported ; packed into trains like cattle and sent to Uzbekistan. Over 7,000 died on the way. The Chinese are no different from the Russians. Their ideology is that the ends justify the means. Thanks for giving me a history lesson regarding China and Korea. What an eye-opener!
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Post by wiked on Jul 23, 2005 19:04:23 GMT -5
The topic is not Yi Sunshin here. Please, don't you confuse what the topic is of this thread. This has nothing to do with Yi Sunshin. Thus this kind of things should not be talked about as it is out of bounds with the focus of the topics relationto Yi soon shin. this link states that it is from individuals posting comments. "You're Reading an Individual Post This is your community too - please contribute your comments by clicking the 'Comments' link below!" Also dated December 14, 2003 It's not a matter of opinion that some Chinese historians and government officials openly claimed Koguryo as a part of Chinese history, or that Koguryo was deleted from their foreign ministry webpage or that Ancient Chosun is never mentioned in their history textbooks. These are facts.And what's biased about that statement? China did attempt to claim a part of Korea's ancienty history, and some South Korean historians did criticize that. I only see factual information here. Oh but i would highly disagree with you there. You realise that Historians never can agree with each other when comparing information they find? There is no such thing as real facts until every historian can agree on the said circumstantial proof of evidence. Just because korean,japanese and chinese think differently sometimes,does not mean they represent the whole of their countries own mindset or attitude. It is just their own views. The articles are old, yes, but it's an ongoing thing. China and Korea agreed to drop the subject some time ago, and the heat died down a bit now, but that doesn't mean that this is over and done with. Well i am glad Korea and china both dropped the subject. Of course there could still be conflicts. But there is always room for peace as well,never forget that. Not that any of the links I gave you were biased, but if you still doubt that China is trying to claim Koguryo history as its own, than try this one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KoguryoAn article from wikipedia encyclopedia. Would that qualify for you as an 'unbiased' source? (hey, that's your screen name, by the way) actually the links you gave were biased. But honestly Wikipedia is no better. It can contain biased views from both sides,for anyone can edit the information it contains. Who is to know what is reliable and unreliable information. It will always be a tug of war over truths versus lies there.
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Post by wiked on Jul 23, 2005 19:16:37 GMT -5
The Chinese are no different from the Russians. Their ideology is that the ends justify the means. And what of americans attitude/idiology towards in vasion of Iraq over terrorism,foreign policy,or any other nations ideals on this globe? Really nothing comparable because it is all the same. If you must compare,than i am not surprised as China has been attacked 3 times over by foreign invaders in past. Its just protecting itself from any future foreign attacks. But again many countrys are doing the same.
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Post by donilpark on Jul 23, 2005 20:01:53 GMT -5
You were saying I shouldn't discuss this issue because this 'board' is about Yi Sunshin. And I said that this 'thread' was not about Yi Sunshin even though the board may be. Ok, so this topic of Koguryo may not be directely related to Yi Sunshin, so we shouldn't talk about it? Are you interested in discussing it on some other board? Would that make any difference for you? Then I''ll happily change the place. Give me the address of the board where you would like to talk about this.
Ahahahahahah!!!!!! That 'individual post' means that it's just one single article. It doesn't mean it's been posted by some biased, third-party individual. You really made my day! It's been a while since I laughed like this. ;D The individual opinions are below the 'Comment' section of the article. Above that is the actual article. And why do you keep bringing date into this? it's 2003 article, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that China tried to claim Koguryo as a part of her history and that North Korea denounced it. And I've already said, this is an ongoing issue. This started back in around the 50's and is still continuing on. It's just that this broke out into a fire in 2003~4 but it's been there all these years, and it's still sitting there to resurface any time.
Like I said, the project and the historians who came up with the claim are under the commission of the Chinese government. I'm not saying that EVERY SINGLE Chinese person thinks this way, drive that clearly into your head, but you see, this is kind of like the official stance Chinese government is taking. Of course it represents the midset and attitude of the Chinese. I can only look at it that way.
Yes. Peace and prosperity when neither side no longer thinks of invading the other by any means, be it by force, by history, or by whatever.
I'm not sure why you keep saying 'biased' here. What is it that you can't accept? Can't you accept the fact that China tried to claim Koguryo history as her own and that both Koreas criticized that? Or is it that you can't accept Koguryo history as Korean history? Because what I've been trying to tell you here is the former. The simple fact that China tried to claim Koguryo as its history and that Korea was not happy about that. You were telling me I was spreading propaganda about this based on my hateful opinions. That is, you were saying that I made up the whole story about China trying to claim Koguryo history as its own. So I gave you links to a few articles where they talk about this issue to show you that it's a real issue, not an imaginary one that I made up in my mind so that I can spread hateful,l false propaganda against China. The latter, well, I guess from the Chinese viewpoint, they have a ground for argument here. But we sort of agree at the outset that "Koguryo" is "Koryo" is "Korea," don't we? So make up your mind. Is it that you can't believe the fact that China tried to claim Koguryo history as its own, or is it that you don't agree that Koguryo is a part of Korean history?
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